Early Stage Rejection Application form Feedback through a SAR

[Peanut]

Hi, I'm currently submitting applications as many of you probably already are but as with the previous 2 years I'm getting kicked back at the first hurdle every time. I've sought feedback and input from solicitors, trainees, and my university's employability team, and made countless changes to applications but get nothing back apart from the standard rejection email with a comment that they can't provide feedback. Despite this I have previously asked for feedback on my application form a few times and all they told me was what percentile I was in, which wasn't particularly helpful.
I am at a loss as to what to do and wanted your opinion on submitting a SAR to hopefully get some notes on my application form, what automatic processing took place and understand whether I simply didn't make the cut based on grades. Has anyone ever tried this for an early stage rejection? And if soo did you get any useful information from submitting a SAR?
Thanks for your help.

 

[HorsesForCoursesNeighNeighNeigh]

I strongly suspect (although correct me anybody if I'm wrong!) that the marking notes of your application essays on firm records will not be detailed or hugely helpful--they won't be designed for giving feedback to applicants.

Have you tried the TCLA application review yet? Personally I found that a thousand times more helpful than asking anybody else--getting feedback from a graduate recruiter on the written aspect of your application is much more valuable than from a lawyer. The advice will be forensic and reflect much more closely the actual process.

How are your grades, and are you applying to places where your grades are in line with their expectations, or at least their minimums? How many firms are you applying to, and are they good matches for you?

Have you considered what experiences you have to include within your application and how they come across in your essays? If your grades aren't strong, having strong essays will help, as will experiences that show you're passionate and skilled at what you do. While writing the essays brilliantly is crucial, it's also obviously a lot easier if you have strong experiences to discuss that really demonstrate your skills and experience. It might be worth trying to bolster the experiences to discuss too?

 

[Jessica Booker]

As someone who has reviewed applications, the "feedback" information can be brutally unhelpful as a "yes" or "no". Many firms don't go through the process of recording why someone has been unsuccessful, just that they have been. A SAR would not detail any automatic processes either and there would be no guarantees the decision was made on your academics. However, if a firm does score you against any criteria (many do), then this would be recorded and you could get these scores through if you did. So you will just take a bit of a gamble as to how much useful information you would get if you took the SAR route.

The percentile will relate to any test scores rather than your application. You could get a very high percentile ranking in tests but still be unsuccessful if your application has not met the criteria of the firm.

 

[AvniD]

Hi, I'm currently submitting applications as many of you probably already are but as with the previous 2 years I'm getting kicked back at the first hurdle every time. I've sought feedback and input from solicitors, trainees, and my university's employability team, and made countless changes to applications but get nothing back apart from the standard rejection email with a comment that they can't provide feedback. Despite this I have previously asked for feedback on my application form a few times and all they told me was what percentile I was in, which wasn't particularly helpful.
I am at a loss as to what to do and wanted your opinion on submitting a SAR to hopefully get some notes on my application form, what automatic processing took place and understand whether I simply didn't make the cut based on grades. Has anyone ever tried this for an early stage rejection? And if soo did you get any useful information from submitting a SAR?
Thanks for your help.

Hi @Peanut, I'm sorry to hear that you've been struggling with getting feedback. I found both the TCLA application review service and booking weekly/bimonthly 1:1 meetings with my uni's careers service incredibly helpful in understanding where I could improve my writing and what I needed to do to develop my motivations for a career in commercial law. I also made it a point to run my applications past family/friends so that I could get the perspective of someone who knows me really well to understand if I am expressing myself authentically. Do you think any of these things could be beneficial to you in understanding where you can improve?

At the end of the day, there are loads of factors that you can barely control, if at all, that may influence a rejection- the volume of applications, minor details here and there, the time you apply etc. You could go down the SAR route if you think you would benefit from knowing how firms are viewing your applications but I would also encourage you to simultaneously undertake your own review of what you think is working and isn't. Chances are the latter would be more exhaustive and informative than the former, based on what @Jessica Booker has said above.

Lastly, please do reach out to us if we can help you with any questions you have while making applications. I understand that this process can be demoralising and frustrating at times but you are doing so well by reaching out here to seek the forum's support- it really is incredibly commendable 👏 👏 👏

 

[Peanut]

Thank you all for the time you have taken to respond, it is appreciated.
@AvniD - I completely agree with what you say about conducting a self-review, but I guess where that falls down for me is that nothing has worked so far so I have no marker as to what I can improve on. Admittedly I can't change my grades now but I have been working harder on the things I can control which are the written aspects of my applications, all to no avail.
Based on what @Jessica Booker said I think I will submit a SAR so that I can understand of my grades are being scored against any criteria and what that score is. For me that would be particularly helpful because at least then I can see if my efforts are in vain.

How are your grades, and are you applying to places where your grades are in line with their expectations, or at least their minimums?

@HorsesForCoursesNeighNeighNeigh - For my degree I got a 2:1 (just!) but regarding A-Levels/GCSEs it is not at all clear which is also partly why I want to submit the SAR. I did the IB but also did an A-level on top of that which based on the current UCAS system leaves me with 200 points but that doesn't take into account the fact that the A* didn't exist when I took the A-Level (Which matters because it would now be an A*). In any case 200 is higher than the UCAS score for an AAB/ABB minimum anyway but that is assuming they are using the current UCAS scoring system to compare qualifications.
On my GCSEs I did something completely non-standard so I don't know how they would use/have been using that information.
I haven't been filling out the "mitigating circumstances" section, and I've always wondered if I should but I don't really see how any of the above would be considered a mitigating circumstance.

My current feeling is that I am going to have to submit a SAR and hope I get some answers.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Thank you all for the time you have taken to respond, it is appreciated.
@AvniD - I completely agree with what you say about conducting a self-review, but I guess where that falls down for me is that nothing has worked so far so I have no marker as to what I can improve on. Admittedly I can't change my grades now but I have been working harder on the things I can control which are the written aspects of my applications, all to no avail.
Based on what @Jessica Booker said I think I will submit a SAR so that I can understand of my grades are being scored against any criteria and what that score is. For me that would be particularly helpful because at least then I can see if my efforts are in vain.

@HorsesForCoursesNeighNeighNeigh - For my degree I got a 2:1 (just!) but regarding A-Levels/GCSEs it is not at all clear which is also partly why I want to submit the SAR. I did the IB but also did an A-level on top of that which based on the current UCAS system leaves me with 200 points but that doesn't take into account the fact that the A* didn't exist when I took the A-Level (Which matters because it would now be an A*). In any case 200 is higher than the UCAS score for an AAB/ABB minimum anyway but that is assuming they are using the current UCAS scoring system to compare qualifications.
On my GCSEs I did something completely non-standard so I don't know how they would use/have been using that information.
I haven't been filling out the "mitigating circumstances" section, and I've always wondered if I should but I don't really see how any of the above would be considered a mitigating circumstance.

My current feeling is that I am going to have to submit a SAR and hope I get some answers.

There is a significant chance that you won’t get any feedback on your academics, and even if you do, it’s probably only going to be on a scoring scale (eg 1-5 or 1-10). There won’t be the detail in why they think your grades are on that scale though, so it will be difficult to know if this is due to your degree results or earlier academics. It’s highly unlikely you will get any detail that suggests the scoring was based on your GCSEs or something else, and is I highly suspect a SAR request is not going to give you the information you are looking for.

If you have mitigating circumstances and are not claiming them, this could be a major influence on your how your academics are perceived. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss your mitigating circumstances outside of the public forum. However, nothing you have listed would be considered mitigating circumstances as these are things that are outside of your control and unique to you.

 

[Peanut]

@Jessica Booker - so after submitting an application, how are applications screened for meeting minimum grade requirements?

Ultimately I am not expecting any detailed explanations on any part of my application by submitting a SAR but submitting it will give me everything they have created, be that emails between individuals about my application, results from automatic processing in relation to my application, and any scores they have manually created (if any at all). And even though I might not be able to make complete sense of any of it, I have nothing to go on at the moment so I don’t know what to change. Yes it might raise more questions but I doubt it won’t provide any answers, unless of course they haven’t reviewed it.

 

[Jessica Booker]

@Jessica Booker - so after submitting an application, how are applications screened for meeting minimum grade requirements?

Ultimately I am not expecting any detailed explanations on any part of my application by submitting a SAR but submitting it will give me everything they have created, be that emails between individuals about my application, results from automatic processing in relation to my application, and any scores they have manually created (if any at all). And even though I might not be able to make complete sense of any of it, I have nothing to go on at the moment so I don’t know what to change. Yes it might raise more questions but I doubt it won’t provide any answers, unless of course they haven’t reviewed it.

If an application does not meet the minimum requirements, then it is likely to that they will just be rejected on that basis. The most that could be recorded is “does not meet the required standard”. But from what you have said you have a 2.1 and the necessary UCAS points, so it’s unlikely to be the case a decision has been made on that basis.

It is highly unlikely there will be emails about your application between individuals. You won’t necessarily find out about any automatic processes either. If the application is more than 6 months old, the firm might not even still hold the data. Some firms wipe data between 6-18 months or at the end of the recruitment cycle.

Before you go in with a SAR, ask the firm whether they could provide the feedback before you put a SAR request in. That actually might be more helpful as the firm might be more willing to give you useful feedback where it will save them a huge amount of time dealing with the SAR. If they say no, then you could put the SAR in.

 

[Peanut]

If an application does not meet the minimum requirements, then it is likely to that they will just be rejected on that basis. The most that could be recorded is “does not meet the required standard”. But from what you have said you have a 2.1 and the necessary UCAS points, so it’s unlikely to be the case a decision has been made on that basis.

It is highly unlikely there will be emails about your application between individuals. You won’t necessarily find out about any automatic processes either. If the application is more than 6 months old, the firm might not even still hold the data. Some firms wipe data between 6-18 months or at the end of the recruitment cycle.

Before you go in with a SAR, ask the firm whether they could provide the feedback before you put a SAR request in. That actually might be more helpful as the firm might be more willing to give you useful feedback where it will save them a huge amount of time dealing with the SAR. If they say no, then you could put the SAR in.

But my question was how they check for minimum grades practically. Does a computer look for them or it is done manually? If the qualifications are non standard are they converted to UCAS points and then scored? What about A-Levels pre-2008 when an A* didn’t exist? Are those grades weighted accordingly?

I have no reason to believe they don’t do any of the things I mention above but the points you have made don’t convinced me that they do. That combined with the fact that many applications ask whether you have reached the minimum UCAS points tally of 200 which isn’t attainable at 3 A*s nevermind an AAB/ABB leaves me further in doubt as to what the law firms are screening on and I am left concluding that students that don’t hold standard A-Level qualifications are not considered equally when applying.

The issue I have had with all my applications is that I have never known if I have met the minimum standard for grades because I have non-standard qualifications. I completely appreciate that firms can’t account for every scenario with regards to grades, but if UCAS is going to be used to make the comparison then that should be made clear (and applied correctly). And lastly when an application takes hours/days to complete I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be told that the reason you were rejected at the application stage was because you didn’t meet the minimum grade requirements if that was the case. At least then that can be taken forward and applicants can focus their efforts on law firms with lower grade boundaries.

I take your point regarding asking for feedback first. I received my rejection last Friday so deletion isn’t yet an issue.

 

[Jessica Booker]

But my question was how they check for minimum grades practically. Does a computer look for them or it is done manually? If the qualifications are non standard are they converted to UCAS points and then scored? What about A-Levels pre-2008 when an A* didn’t exist? Are those grades weighted accordingly?

I have no reason to believe they don’t do any of the things I mention above but the points you have made don’t convinced me that they do. That combined with the fact that many applications ask whether you have reached the minimum UCAS points tally of 200 which isn’t attainable at 3 A*s nevermind an AAB/ABB leaves me further in doubt as to what the law firms are screening on and I am left concluding that students that don’t hold standard A-Level qualifications are not considered equally when applying.

The issue I have had with all my applications is that I have never known if I have met the minimum standard for grades because I have non-standard qualifications. I completely appreciate that firms can’t account for every scenario with regards to grades, but if UCAS is going to be used to make the comparison then that should be made clear (and applied correctly). And lastly when an application takes hours/days to complete I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be told that the reason you were rejected at the application stage was because you didn’t meet the minimum grade requirements if that was the case. At least then that can be taken forward and applicants can focus their efforts on law firms with lower grade boundaries.

I take your point regarding asking for feedback first. I received my rejection last Friday so deletion isn’t yet an issue.

Most likely it will be done manually as grades are not uniform and there are too many variables. The only time I have known it to be more "automatic" is when they ask the question "have you achieved X" and when you say no it causes a flag to the recruiter, but even then they tend to check there are not any reasons why that is the case.

If a firm asks for UCAS points, then someone will manually (in their head) calculate what they are and see if it meets the standards the firm set. When you are reviewing 100s of applications each week, you become an expert at these calculations.

I don't know of any firm that asks for 200 UCAS points. As you have said, it is unobtainable under the new tariff system unless you do four A-levels and got 4 A* grades, and this would exclude far too many people from applying. A lot of firms don't even have a UCAS tariff these days (mainly due to the conversion process) and just state grades. When firms do look at UCAS points, they typically only calculate it over 3 A-levels (when it is A-levels) to ensure consistency. The maximum I have seen is 144 (which is 3 x A grades).

Which firm states they want 200 UCAS points?

Many qualifications don't even translate to UCAS points (for instance international qualifications) and so if you have non-traditional qualifications that don't convert to UCAS points, a recruiter cannot convert them either and will just look at the face-value of the grades as they are presented.

There is no weighting for pre-2008 grades though when A* didn't exist, in the same way there isn't for the new GCSE scoring system. It's impossible to take into account academic inflation and different grading systems directly. But anyone who did their A-levels or equivalent pre-2008 is most likely going to be a career changer with a lot of other evidence on their application beyond their academics, and in that case the recruiter is likely to care far less about their A-levels/GCSEs and more what they have done in recent years.

Feel free to PM me with details of your academics and I can probably tell you what your equivalent grades would be.

The final thing to consider if you are applying with non-conventional qualifications is to spell out to the recruiter what you understand them to be equivalent to. This is very common with non-UK applicants who will explain their grading systems.