Law firms & Diversity

[S87]

Guys, am I being too harsh if I decide to not apply to law firms where there are no black people?

 

[Jessica Booker]

Thank you for creating the thread

 

[Jessica Booker]

2020-21 Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion

It's certainly true that it might be the case that they just haven't had quality applications from ethnic minorities (although I do find it slightly unlikely in this day and age). I just think the way you've approached this is wrong. It isn't fair to guilt individuals into being the one to break...

www.thecorporatelawacademy.com

Just quoting the last few posts in the VS thread to try and continue to conversation

 

[Jessica Booker]

2020-21 Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion

It's certainly true that it might be the case that they just haven't had quality applications from ethnic minorities (although I do find it slightly unlikely in this day and age). I just think the way you've approached this is wrong. It isn't fair to guilt individuals into being the one to break...

www.thecorporatelawacademy.com

 

[Jessica Booker]

2020-21 Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion

It's certainly true that it might be the case that they just haven't had quality applications from ethnic minorities (although I do find it slightly unlikely in this day and age). I just think the way you've approached this is wrong. It isn't fair to guilt individuals into being the one to break...

www.thecorporatelawacademy.com

 

[Jessica Booker]

2020-21 Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion

Guys, am I being too harsh if I decide to not apply to law firms where there are no black people? Its not harsh as it is a personal opinion. But my personal view would be 1) How do you know there is really are "no" black people? You are unlikely to know all employees and unless the firm is...

www.thecorporatelawacademy.com

 

[Mxkry]

How do you know that a particular firm has 0 black people?
And yes as a black male, if a firm had 0 black people in it, I probably would not apply. I just don’t see how that would be a comfortable working environment

 

[S87]

@Andrew M did not mean to offend.

But this is also personal because I want to be seen and respected.

It is a tricky situation, you can only know about a firm if you experience it and @LegalLily outlined a very revealing experience although not personal. The problem is, what are you going to do when you actually work for a firm with a hostile environment?!

I guess it is like every situation in life, but If I do not like my partner's ways I can immediately leave. I cannot do the same for a law firm! It is my job and you need money to survive in London.

 

[Jessica Booker]

@Andrew M did not mean to offend.

But this is also personal because I want to be seen and respected.

It is a tricky situation, you can only know about a firm if you experience it and @LegalLily outlined a very revealing experience although not personal. The problem is, what are you going to do when you actually work for a firm with a hostile environment?!

I guess it is like every situation in life, but If I do not like my partner's ways I can immediately leave. I cannot do the same for a law firm? It is my job and you need money to survive in London.

I think many lawyers do leave law firms for that exact reason and why retention/attrition of certain groups is awful. I know that's why I left one anyway!

 

[S87]

I think many lawyers do leave law firms for that exact reason and why retention/attrition of certain groups is awful. I know that's why I left one anyway!

I guess that have a plan B in life is the only solution.

But again, is it possible that for various reasons black people do not appear on the firm's site?

 

[whisperingrock]

Speaking as someone with various "diverse" characteristics other than ethnicity, I think people's memories are a bit short. Most firms and people did not care very much for issues of diversity until very recently, with a big push only happening in the 2010s. If you look into the history of law firms in London, you will be shocked to see how recently it became allowed and accepted for women to wear trousers to work for example.

Change takes time. This doesn't exonerate those that aren't trying to change and those who are only paying diversity lip service of course, but I think commenters are being a little unfair on organisations which are trying but haven't hit the mark yet.

 

[jan28]

I'm glad that these topics are being openly discussed because it makes me feel less like an OTT person when I say 'I wouldn't feel comfortable in a x firm'. For instance, a firm I did a vac scheme with last summer told us that they don't openly support things like Black Lives Matter because it's not part of the brand (but they did do it internally). At first, I was like OK that's fine because every business has its preferences, but it just wouldn't leave my mind for some reason. It didn't help that I could make comparisons with so many other firms taking such a strong stance publicly (which IMO is the whole point of it). So in hindsight I'm genuinely fine with not getting the TC because the firm really wouldn't have been for me anyway.

edit: sorry not directly related to the main question but thought i'd input my somewhat relatable experience.

 

[Jessica Booker]

I guess that have a plan B in life is the only solution.

But again, is it possible that for various reasons black people do not appear on the firm's site?

A job in a law firm is not forever. People move because they can find something better for them, whatever their circumstances.

Yes, there are a whole host of reasons why a black people may not be represented on a firm's website . What I would stress is that most firm's are pretty concious of their representation on anything presented externally and how that will be perceived.

But I have lost count with people I have asked to be in such materials marketing or at careers events who have said no purely because they feel they are being rolled out purely because of their characteristics (gender, disability, ethnicity, age/career changers, LGBTQ+) and don't agree with the concept of them being "profiled" in a public way.

For anyone who is interested, I recommend reading some of the Bridge Group's reports. Although they are social mobility focused, they show that as certain demographics do get "rolled out" all the time for events, they can often find it more difficult to balance this with their day job, because the demands on them are greater than the "over-represented" groups.

 

[S87]

I'm glad that these topics are being openly discussed because it makes me feel less like an OTT person when I say 'I wouldn't feel comfortable in a x firm'. For instance, a firm I did a vac scheme with last summer told us that they don't openly support things like Black Lives Matter because it's not part of the brand (but they did do it internally). At first, I was like OK that's fine because every business has its preferences, but it just wouldn't leave my mind for some reason. It didn't help that I could make comparisons with so many other firms taking such a strong stance publicly (which IMO is the whole point of it). So in hindsight I'm genuinely fine with not getting the TC because the firm really wouldn't have been for me anyway.

edit: sorry not directly related to the main question but thought i'd input my somewhat relatable experience.

Well, i know the firm you are referring to and your post has a lot to do with my question.

I am shocked!

 

[Holly]

Change takes time. This doesn't exonerate those that aren't trying to change and those who are only paying diversity lip service of course, but I think commenters are being a little unfair on organisations which are trying but haven't hit the mark yet.

Do you think it may be a matter of priorities? Law firms quickly responded and adapted when Covid happened. Couldn’t they adopt a similar approach with attracting and hiring black applicants?

 

[S87]

Do you think it may be a matter of priorities? Law firms quickly responded and adapted when Covid happened. Couldn’t they adopt a similar approach with attracting and hiring black applicants?

 

[whisperingrock]

Do you think it may be a matter of priorities? Law firms quickly responded and adapted when Covid happened. Couldn’t they adopt a similar approach with attracting and hiring black applicants?

I think the two "issues" are so different as to be incomparable. It takes significantly more time, effort, study, marketing, etc. to convince a certain demographic they may be welcome and wanted at a firm than it does to switch people to remote working in a global environment which has now made that workable.

Edit: And obviously, law firms are businesses. None of them are doing diversity out of the godness of their hearts guys. Of course the thing that enables them to keep working full stop is going to be higher priority than hiring enough diverse candidates to virtue signal to clients that they should get a mandate. I'm not disagreeing with your point that clearly they don't prioritize this. But frankly, I think its a bit unrealistic to expect them to.

 

[S87]

I think the two "issues" are so different as to be incomparable. It takes significantly more time, effort, study, marketing, etc. to convince a certain demographic they may be welcome and wanted at a firm than it does to switch people to remote working in a global environment which has now made that workable.

Convince??

You do not have to convince me to apply for a job that I have studied for!

 

[Jessica Booker]

Do you think it may be a matter of priorities? Law firms quickly responded and adapted when Covid happened. Couldn’t they adopt a similar approach with attracting and hiring black applicants?

There is a massive time lag in recruitment and then the PQE model means that seeing that representation at senior levels, that time lag is even worse.

Someone recruited this year, wouldn't start until 2023/24, they wouldn't be qualified until 2025/26, and for many firms, partnership is another decade on top of that (most of the people I recruited 10 years ago aren't partners yet, in fact many are only just reaching a more senior associate level role).

 

[S87]

A job in a law firm is not forever. People move because they can find something better for them, whatever their circumstances.

Yes, there are a whole host of reasons why a black people may not be represented on a firm's website . What I would stress is that most firm's are pretty concious of their representation on anything presented externally and how that will be perceived.

But I have lost count with people I have asked to be in such materials marketing or at careers events who have said no purely because they feel they are being rolled out purely because of their characteristics (gender, disability, ethnicity, age/career changers, LGBTQ+) and don't agree with the concept of them being "profiled" in a public way.

For anyone who is interested, I recommend reading some of the Bridge Group's reports. Although they are social mobility focused, they show that as certain demographics do get "rolled out" all the time for events, they can often find it more difficult to balance this with their day job, because the demands on them are greater than the "over-represented" groups.

Interesting insight and I will read the reports.

Thank you