TCLA Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion Thread 2021-22 (#1)

[AvniD]

When I applied it was 2 questions. "any awards or scholarships" and "Your hobbies" - I felt like it was slightly elitist in that obviously the guy from Oxbridge with 2 scholarships and who participates in 15 societies would beat out the guy who can barely find any time out of school or uni because they have to work all week lol. It didn't feel like you could really tell the firm about who you truly are and your passion/skills clearly enough in my opinion.

I would disagree that it is elitist - I think its about how you position yourself. I am the guy who could barely find time outside of school or uni because they had to work all week but I answer the hobbies questions by being very honest and saying I am limited to time because of the fact I worked 30+ hours a week alongside a full time LLB so I don't partake in sports or societies. However I would show how my part time job aligned to my interest in tech as I worked for a tech company and how it was quite a social job as I was in sales and working in London meant I spent my days talking to people of all different backgrounds and hearing some fantastic stories, I say how I would use the time commuting to read the news and listen to podcasts as I like to know what's going on in the world. IMO when law firms ask for your hobbies they aren't so bothered by what they are they are more thing to find out what motivates you.

I agree to certain extent but that still passes over the scholarships and prizes question. Plus I have attended skadden open days and met with skadden associates and the diversity is pretty appalling. Part of that is the size but it’s definitely a reflection of the firms hiring practices being tailored to those who had a plan of action earlier on in life/had more recourses. You’re story is super impressive and honestly amazing in my eyes. But I really don’t think asking for scholarships or prizes is a great way of judging character or ability in my opinion. Nor is it a great way to diversify a firms hiring. Just my opinion though

Yes I would agree that the entire hiring process is better suited to those that knew what they wanted earlier, I feel incredibly behind in AC's for VS's in particular being in my late 20s when so many of the other candidates are second year law students at 19/20. I didn't even start university until I was older than some people I meet in ACs. I also think although you don't need a RG/Oxbridge degree you do receive much better access to firms and careers advice at those universities so you have to do less work yourself to find the information out.

There is only so much a law firm can do to diversify hiring, a lot of people self-select out of the process as they don't think they are the right fit so it becomes somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy that only oxbridge etc are hired by certain firms. I think perhaps more needs to be done to recognise the achievements of people in context, and contextual recruitment is going some way towards that.

I personally like when a law firm asks for scholarships/prizes, but that is somewhat selfish on my part as I have been awarded two competitive scholarships so have something to put in that box.

@DTS and @Abii just wanted to shout you out for having a mature, respectful discussion on this topic on the forum. Discussions like this help set the tone for the community and I am thankful to you both for your thoughtfulness in the manner of your posting.

I also wanted to chip in with some of my thoughts and perspective on this. I was always the person both in school and at university who focused a lot of their energy on extracurricular activities, volunteering and part-time jobs. Although my academic performance was a priority, my extracurriculars captured my interests more pointedly and I was more passionate about them as a result.

Whenever I got asked about my extracurriculars on an application form, I felt like it was validating my efforts and interests outside of academics and it felt good to have people care about it more than/as much as my academics. Conversely, I had some friends who didn't have many extracurriculars or any scholarships/prizes at all and they still did pretty well in getting hired by the same kind of firms that I was applying to.

I think what worked for them was a combination of things that @Abii has already mentioned, including not self-selecting themselves from the application process and, importantly, presenting the seemingly small ways they engaged themselves in a manner that was relevant to the firm's hiring requirements. So for example, if they knitted or watched some sport as a hobby, they brought out the details of what they put into it and go out of it to showcase that their thought process matched the competencies that the firm was looking for in their future trainees.

It took a lot of brainstorming, effort and a lot of creativity to craft their answers in this manner but they succeeded in the application process in the end just as well/better than I did, which means that these kind of questions don't necessarily have to leave out people who have a few/no scholarships, prizes or extracurriculars from applying and succeeding in the application process.

I can see your point about maybe some firms designing these questions to simply sift those who don't have many extracurriculars out from those who do, and I genuinely hope that my experience and perspective can help applicants who have few/no extracurriculars figure out their approach to these questions and draft strong, impactful answers nonetheless.

Wishing you both well 😇

 

[AvniD]

I get confused by the interaction between practice areas and sector specialisms and wouldn’t mind some clarification on how the two correspond in a firm in practice.

Example:

A client with a data protection matter at a hotel asks for advice from a law firm. This law firm has a hotel and leisure sector. They also, naturally, have a data protection and privacy practice.

Are both teams engaged? If both teams are engaged, how does this overlap work in practice? Or are there not even separate teams and this is just how it is laid out on the firm’s website?

I would be very grateful for an explanation on this. Thank you

I was in the same boat as you when I first started making applications and the thing that helped was attending webinars and just listening to lawyers talk about their work and taking down notes on the technicalities of it- maybe you'd find that useful too.

Break down of my attempt to answer your question-

• Practice areas- the areas of legal practice that the firm specialises in. These practice areas cut across sectors so for example, the employment team can work on employment-related matters across a range of sectors like hospitality, construction, shipping etc.
  
  
• Sectors- these are certain industries, economic sectors that the firm has expertise in. For example, if the firm's lawyers have worked on many hospitality deals and matters, then they can say that they have expertise in the hospitality sector or that this is one of the firm's sectors.

Lawyers at firms are generally divided on the basis of practice areas and not sectors, although they will be noted for a particular sector expertise. So the way this would play out in the example you've chosen is that the firm would mobilise their lawyers working in their data protection and privacy practice areas and probably emphasise any particular lawyers with a sector expertise in the hotel and leisure sector.

It's not always black and white and the divisions blur more at some firms than others but this is generally how it looks like across most of them. I hope this helps?

 

[LawfulRust00]

I was in the same boat as you when I first started making applications and the thing that helped was attending webinars and just listening to lawyers talk about their work and taking down notes on the technicalities of it- maybe you'd find that useful too.

Break down of my attempt to answer your question-

• Practice areas- the areas of legal practice that the firm specialises in. These practice areas cut across sectors so for example, the employment team can work on employment-related matters across a range of sectors like hospitality, construction, shipping etc.
  
  
• Sectors- these are certain industries, economic sectors that the firm has expertise in. For example, if the firm's lawyers have worked on many hospitality deals and matters, then they can say that they have expertise in the hospitality sector or that this is one of the firm's sectors.

Lawyers at firms are generally divided on the basis of practice areas and not sectors, although they will be noted for a particular sector expertise. So the way this would play out in the example you've chosen is that the firm would mobilise their lawyers working in their data protection and privacy practice areas and probably emphasise any particular lawyers with a sector expertise in the hotel and leisure sector.

It's not always black and white and the divisions blur more at some firms than others but this is generally how it looks like across most of them. I hope this helps?

This is so, so useful. Thank you so much - exactly the explanation and breakdown I was looking for. Much appreciated

 

[Jessica Booker]

Just received an offer from Baker McKenzie for their Summer VS!

They said I performed the best they've seen this cycle and received the highest marks for the group exercise, partner case study, and associate interview out of every AC they've conducted this year!!!!!!!!!!!! When finishing the AC, I thought I wouldn't get it because I didn't finish the document checking exercise within the allocated time. I guess this goes to show that even if you mess up in one part, you can still smash the others!

Having been rejected from each of my 45+ applications over the past three cycles, securing three schemes at top city law firms this cycle really validated Rocky's "it ain't about how hard you can hit" quote for me. Honestly over the moon and can't thank everyone on this forum who helped me enough. Here to chat if anyone needs any application, interview, or AC tips!

Much love, TCLA, hope to update you with a TC offer at some point soon!

This is amazing news - congratulations!

What I must stress is that not finishing an exercise isn't necessarily messing it up. It can be quite common not to complete the exercise - they are typically designed so a good proportion of people won't finish them. They will be much more interested in the exercise's content rather than whether you finished it or not!

 

[A92167!8]

I just got an email from Dentons because all spaces have been filled for vac schemes but they've offered an AC for direct TC... Anyone else had this experience before?

I had my AC today. Has anyone heard back post AC for London?

 

[Zubin]

This is amazing news - congratulations!

What I must stress is that not finishing an exercise isn't necessarily messing it up. It can be quite common not to complete the exercise - they are typically designed so a good proportion of people won't finish them. They will be much more interested in the exercise's content rather than whether you finished it or not!

Thank you, Jessica! I'm really happy with the result and completely agree regarding quality over quantity.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Thank you! Is this a thing? I was initially hoping to go back home to HK this summer because travel restrictions are lifting, and I haven't seen my family in nearly three years... Do you think BM would do that for me given the results?

@Jessica Booker , perhaps you could weigh in on this?

I can't say this is the case for BM or not, but different standards might be applied for VS and TC recruitment. For instance, having the best performance in a VS process may not equate to it being the best for TC or they could even be looking at different criteria for a TC.

I don't think there is any harm in asking what the chances are of moving you to a direct TC process, but I wouldn't necessarily expect for this to result in a direct offer. They may need to reinterview you to understand your motivations are for a TC rather than a VS.

My only final thought it that they may question why you applied for a VS if your plans were to go home. Could you ask them to attend the earliest scheme so you still have the chance to return home later in the summer?

 

[Jessica Booker]

is that actually possible? cuz I'm thinking about turning it down as I've accepted two other offers

You can ask, and the worst that can happen is they say no and that you'll just have to turn down the VS offer as that is the best they can offer you.

You could renege one of your other offers too of course.

 

[Zubin]

I can't say this is the case for BM or not, but different standards might be applied for VS and TC recruitment. For instance, having the best performance in a VS process may not equate to it being the best for TC or they could even be looking at different criteria for a TC.

I don't think there is any harm in asking what the chances are of moving you to a direct TC process, but I wouldn't necessarily expect for this to result in a direct offer. They may need to reinterview you to understand your motivations are for a TC rather than a VS.

My only final thought it that they may question why you applied for a VS if your plans were to go home. Could you ask them to attend the earliest scheme so you still have the chance to return home later in the summer?

Jessica, thanks for your response.

My motivations remain the same, however, I am leaning most towards BM and would be reneging on two other summer VS offers by accepting a TC offer at this stage, which may work in my favour to demonstrate my commitment to BM.

Unfortunately, BM only runs one summer scheme for 15 participants and is unable to move me to the spring scheme as that's only a couple of weeks away.

Regarding my plans to go home - that is a very good point! I suppose I wasn't expecting to be so fortunate and be in the position I'm in. Nevertheless, as you said, there's no harm in asking!

 

[GXA123]

Has anyone done Irwin Mitchell's ac?

 

[Jessica Booker]

Jessica, thanks for your response.

My motivations remain the same, however, I am leaning most towards BM and would be reneging on two other summer VS offers by accepting a TC offer at this stage, which may work in my favour to demonstrate my commitment to BM.

Unfortunately, BM only runs one summer scheme for 15 participants and is unable to move me to the spring scheme as that's only a couple of weeks away.

Regarding my plans to go home - that is a very good point! I suppose I wasn't expecting to be so fortunate and be in the position I'm in. Nevertheless, as you said, there's no harm in asking!

By motivations, I meant more what BM had asked you rather than what you presented. It might be the case that their motivational questions are much lighter for a vacation scheme rather than a TC.

I don't think the suggestion that you would turn down 2 VS to accept their TC really works logically though. Their argument could be that 1) you are clearly willing to do VS over the summer with other firms (as you have accepted them) so why couldn't you do their VS and just renege the other firm(s). They could also argue that it would be better to do the schemes and work out which firm you are better suited to as well.

 

[YUKI1201]

Is it possible to transfer your summer vacation scheme to a winter/spring in the next cycle? Feel like I don't want to waste all I've put in to get an offer just to turn it down straight awat

 

[Jessica Booker]

Is it possible to transfer your summer vacation scheme to a winter/spring in the next cycle? Feel like I don't want to waste all I've put in to get an offer just to turn it down straight awat

You can ask, but the firm knows there is a good chance you won’t take it up if you secure TCs this summer as you are unlikely to be their first choice of firm if you are going to otherwise turn them down.

If you are not eligible for the schemes this could also be an obstacle too.

I’d generally only offer this if mitigating circumstances were stopping someone from taking up the scheme they were offered.

 

[M991]

Is it possible to transfer your summer vacation scheme to a winter/spring in the next cycle? Feel like I don't want to waste all I've put in to get an offer just to turn it down straight awat

I think it depends on the firm. The grad rec from the firm, whose offer I had to decline due to clashing dates, asked me whether I would be interested in their Winter VS in the next cycle, if I do not secure any TC this summer.

 

[GXA123]

I think it depends on the firm. The grad rec from the firm, whose offer I had to decline due to clashing dates, asked me whether I would be interested in their Winter VS in the next cycle, if I do not secure any TC this summer.

what firm is this if you don't mind me asking

 

[Hele25]

Hiya guys, so this isn’t technically an application review request/question, but I’m wondering if TCLA reviews postgraduate/LPC application personal statements?

Or separately, are there any resources that anyone knows of that could help guide me in what to include?
I’m thinking of structuring it somewhat like a cover letter - why law, why the uni, why me. But geared towards an LPC. - Is this about right? Any help would be much appreciated.

On another note, went to a careers talk last night at the university of law (in person omg) and I went in with the idea of - “I’m doing the SQE, what’s the point of doing the LPC” etc , and it was a bit bizarre at how strongly they were suggesting still doing the LPC.
Someone asked “what about firms that are already transitioning out of the LPC, isn’t it redundant?” and the Dean said “even if you have to do SQE 2 in addition to the LPC- in his opinion this was a preferable route to take as so many law firms are confused about the technical aspects of the SQE and are more comfortable with the LPC”.
(I’m paraphrasing, but the gist was - I don’t see why you would go down the route of the experimental SQE, when the LPC remains an option for those of you who started pre 2021).

He did remain objective saying if anyone DID want to do the SQE he would stay later and discuss it, but everyone in the room was only interested in the LPC.

It was very interesting as I thought providers would be taking the opposite stance and be pushing the SQE, but it seemed their personal opinions were very much still stuck on the LPC.

*this is in no way meant to sway anyones opinions re SQE and LPC and I sincerely don’t know enough about what law firms want to comment !!!
just thought it was interesting
And a little bit of gossip lol

 

[corplaw123]

Goodwin VS offer!

 

[Abii]

Hiya guys, so this isn’t technically an application review request/question, but I’m wondering if TCLA reviews postgraduate/LPC application personal statements?

Or separately, are there any resources that anyone knows of that could help guide me in what to include?
I’m thinking of structuring it somewhat like a cover letter - why law, why the uni, why me. But geared towards an LPC. - Is this about right? Any help would be much appreciated.

On another note, went to a careers talk last night at the university of law (in person omg) and I went in with the idea of - “I’m doing the SQE, what’s the point of doing the LPC” etc , and it was a bit bizarre at how strongly they were suggesting still doing the LPC.
Someone asked “what about firms that are already transitioning out of the LPC, isn’t it redundant?” and the Dean said “even if you have to do SQE 2 in addition to the LPC- in his opinion this was a preferable route to take as so many law firms are confused about the technical aspects of the SQE and are more comfortable with the LPC”.
(I’m paraphrasing, but the gist was - I don’t see why you would go down the route of the experimental SQE, when the LPC remains an option for those of you who started pre 2021).

He did remain objective saying if anyone DID want to do the SQE he would stay later and discuss it, but everyone in the room was only interested in the LPC.

It was very interesting as I thought providers would be taking the opposite stance and be pushing the SQE, but it seemed their personal opinions were very much still stuck on the LPC.

*this is in no way meant to sway anyones opinions re SQE and LPC and I sincerely don’t know enough about what law firms want to comment !!!
just thought it was interesting
And a little bit of gossip lol

I would wonder if this might be because they can make more money out of students doing the LPC then doing the SQE2 prep course…

in terms of the LPC personal statement mine was literally three sentences stating I have a scholarship, I intend to qualify as a solicitor and I want to study in london as that’s where I live and intend to work.

 

[thirdtimelucky]

I would wonder if this might be because they can make more money out of students doing the LPC then doing the SQE2 prep course…

in terms of the LPC personal statement mine was literally three sentences stating I have a scholarship, I intend to qualify as a solicitor and I want to study in london as that’s where I live and intend to work.

I was thinking the exact same thing!

 

[John Travoni]

Had anyone heard from Howard Kennedy post application?