TCLA General Discussion Thread #2 (2021)

[SamTam99]

How did you find it? I just did mine and idk if I’m slow but I found it really hard to finish in time and basically rushed through the last two questions on the deductive reasoning! I think the ones I did went well though

Agreed! Found it really hard to finish the deductive reasoning in time, but finished early for the inductive reasoning. Bit annoying that you can’t go back and check your answers though

 

[Abbie4329]

Do Partners, Directors, senior management ever intervene if the HR/recruitment process is not up to standard or generally provides a very inadequate experience for candidates?

Just thought this could be an interesting question for the general thread. Especially as there was an article recently in the Law Gazette discussing how many extra stages legal recruitment requires candidates to go through

I think there would be an ‘us and them’ divide. The fee earners probably wont really want to get involved in the business services side of the firm unless they really have to.

 

[Abbie4329]

Good discussion!

I think I'm gonna see what networking I can manage during my corporate seat/any transactional work I'm involved with. May need some mentorship guidance on how to do that or contacts at other firms who can introduce me to firms that I may find a good fit with

When it comes to securing any job it’s often who you know not what you know that matters!

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

I think there would be an ‘us and them’ divide. The fee earners probably wont really want to get involved in the business services side of the firm unless they really have to.

Oh trust me, they do....

 

[Daniel Boden]

Whilst you guys are on this topic, did you hear about Walker Morris giving a TC to the son/daughter of the managing partner?

I did see that - good to see their CV blind recruitment policy is working well!

In all seriousness, I'd hate to work at the same firm as a parent because you'd always have those whispers amongst your cohort that you didn't get the role on merit regardless of how good you were and you'd probably have to work even harder to prove to people that you deserve to be there! Equally, it'll probably follow you around your career too with any promotion you get... just doesn't seem like an enjoyable working environment tbh

A TC is a hard enough gig as it is without having to worry about all of that so personally, I'd do my absolute best to avoid it because if you're good enough you will find a place at a good firm without having to rely on the fact your mum/dad/aunt/uncle works at the same firm, that's my 2 cents anyway...

Using connections on the other hand to get yourself into somewhere I think is very different to nepotism as that is you being proactive by cultivating that network in the first place in order to make the most of every opportunity you have - I don't think many people would begrudge someone for doing that!

 

[Daniel Boden]

Good discussion!

I think I'm gonna see what networking I can manage during my corporate seat/any transactional work I'm involved with. May need some mentorship guidance on how to do that or contacts at other firms who can introduce me to firms that I may find a good fit with

The best advice I have been given is (a) have a detailed, active LinkedIn, (b) keep a spreadsheet/note of every helpful contact you meet throughout your career (GDPR compliant of course ), and (c) follow-up introductions with a nice message.

Absolutely the right approach and tbh why on earth wouldn't you? Ultimately, you have to do absolutely what is right for you and what will benefit your career (sadly other people won't do it for you if you won't) so definitely look to make those connections and see where it takes you!

Totally agree re the spreadsheet - a relative of mine who has worked in finance for the last 25/30 years only started making a spreadsheet with his business contacts around 15 years ago and some of the names and companies that he's built up are seriously impressive to say the least! Apart from anything else you never know when an opportunity could come up that could benefit the both of you so it's incredibly worthwhile.

From an internal law firm networking perspective, I've been advised to keep a document of every matter you work on and who it was with and write a few lines saying what you enjoyed and disliked about it - when it comes to reviews and ultimately your case for partnership (if that's what you want from your career) then it can be incredibly helpful in showcasing your work and having people vouch for you!

 

[JayC]

I can only talk about the teams I have worked in/run.

99% of complaints are candidates p*ssed off with the decision on their application where they have been unsuccessful. To put it into its extreme context, I was once stalked by a candidate who wouldn’t take no for an answer. They usually have no grounds for the complaint and their application. You have to remember the vast majority of people who apply are going to be rejected, so most complaints centre around this.

I am struggling to think of any “legitimate” concerns that were down to the process - but maybe I have just been lucky/ran a good ship .

I have had complaints about individual interviewers and they have been either taken off interview panels or have been retrained.

I have had complaints about how unnecessary assessments are (usually when people fail them) and then you just go through the legitimate reasons as to why those assessments are valid/reliable.

You get a lot of complaints about the lack of feedback, and then you have to explain you haven’t got time to do this as you’d need someone full-time just giving feedback to individuals for 7-8 weeks just for applications alone.

Grad Rec/HR don’t just make up these recruitment processes on the back of an envelope. They are usually thought through and professionally designed systems that have been tested/piloted and found to be successful. There is a lot of work put in to adapting and amending them when evidence suggests they could be better.

This is all great to hear! I guess it begs the question, though, why some firms seem to do it so much better (or so much worse) than others?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

This is all great to hear! I guess it begs the question, though, why some firms seem to do it so much better (or so much worse) than others?

Perception isn’t always reality I must stress. Just because something isn’t popular doesn’t mean it isn’t effective.

But mainly it comes down to resource, whether that be time or budget. I know one of the bigger “national” firm has a 13 man team for Grad Rec and yet they recruit less than people who have teams of 5. I know budget at some firms is in the millions per year while others recruiting similar numbers are less than half of that. That resource will restrict a lot of what you can and cannot do.

The argument is often put back, why don't those with limited resources just get allocated more? Put frankly, legal graduate recruitment is one of the most competitive for employers (given the number of players in the market) and on average they spend significantly more than any other sector. And much so that when there is an annual survey of Grad Recruitment, they separate law firms out because they skew the data so much. Average cost per hire for most other sectors is about £2k. For law it is over £8k. And that is just the recruitment. People forget that law firms can be chucking the best part of £45k (and sometimes even more) per person to train you even before you get in the front door.

TLDR: Legal graduate recruitment is basically ridiculously expensive already. Chucking more resource at it isn't the simple answer.

 

[jw97]

Would it be totally impossible to go from training in house to private practice?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Would it be totally impossible to go from training in house to private practice?

Not totally impossible - especially if you are in a business/industry that is in high demand for lawyers in the future.

In-house is a completely different environment though. How you learn to deal with clients will be very different, and the nature of the work you will do with be very different. You might get lucky if you build good relationships with a firm through your organisation and basically they nab you.

But it will be difficult. If you are in a market where there are a lot of lawyers trained in private practice it will be more difficult to find that role.

 

[aspiringlawyer23]

Hi everyone! Long time lurker first time posting. I have been offered a TC at my dream firm. I also have a vac scheme coming up at another firm. I don't have the details of how long I have to accept my TC offer, but I'm pretty sure it's before my other vac scheme takes place. Can I still complete the other vac scheme having accepted my offer? (I haven't found anything in my offer letter that suggests otherwise - I also would really like the exposure of the other firm) Is it common to delay signing an offer?
(I know Jacob has mentioned he was in a similar situation with TS & NRF in the past) Thanks

 

[Matt_96]

Hi everyone! Long time lurker first time posting. I have been offered a TC at my dream firm. I also have a vac scheme coming up at another firm. I don't have the details of how long I have to accept my TC offer, but I'm pretty sure it's before my other vac scheme takes place. Can I still complete the other vac scheme having accepted my offer? (I haven't found anything in my offer letter that suggests otherwise - I also would really like the exposure of the other firm) Is it common to delay signing an offer?
(I know Jacob has mentioned he was in a similar situation with TS & NRF in the past) Thanks

I can't say that I'm in your situation, but if you've already got your dream firm TC offer...why waste a week or two of your life at another firm for something that you know you won't accept? You'll get more than enough experience on the job as it is when you start, and I doubt the work you do as a vac schemer will be so life changing that it will drastically alter your perspective on the nature of life as a solicitor. If I were you, I'd cancel your place and just enjoy yourself a bit!

 

[GK8997]

Hi everyone! Long time lurker first time posting. I have been offered a TC at my dream firm. I also have a vac scheme coming up at another firm. I don't have the details of how long I have to accept my TC offer, but I'm pretty sure it's before my other vac scheme takes place. Can I still complete the other vac scheme having accepted my offer? (I haven't found anything in my offer letter that suggests otherwise - I also would really like the exposure of the other firm) Is it common to delay signing an offer?
(I know Jacob has mentioned he was in a similar situation with TS & NRF in the past) Thanks

Firstly, congrats! What I would say is also check your VS offer letter for the other firm because a typical term for most of these is that you haven't accepted a TC anywhere else. Also I agree with @Matt_96, if the TC offer is with your dream firm there may be little point in doing another VS but obviously your choice!

 

[jamescockayne]

Hi all - just received a bit of a curveball with a Dechert VI. Am a bit freaked to say the least. How best can I prepare? I saw another commenter mention commercial questions - what would that entail? Any insight into the sort of questions asked would be lovely!

 

[E.A]

Can't believe NRF completely ghosted me... never heard back post TC application so I called them and she told me to email them, I did, and never heard back...

 

[Jony]

Hi everyone! Long time lurker first time posting. I have been offered a TC at my dream firm. I also have a vac scheme coming up at another firm. I don't have the details of how long I have to accept my TC offer, but I'm pretty sure it's before my other vac scheme takes place. Can I still complete the other vac scheme having accepted my offer? (I haven't found anything in my offer letter that suggests otherwise - I also would really like the exposure of the other firm) Is it common to delay signing an offer?
(I know Jacob has mentioned he was in a similar situation with TS & NRF in the past) Thanks

If you want some more experience in different departments, and if the VS firm is a different type (US/Magic/Silver?) that you'd like to explore, I'd say go for it if you have nothing better to do. The work probably won't be too bad and you'll get to meet people, experience a different department at a different firm and get some more legal experience under your belt - while being paid a little, too.

If you want to go for a well-earned vacation, ignore the above

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Hi everyone! Long time lurker first time posting. I have been offered a TC at my dream firm. I also have a vac scheme coming up at another firm. I don't have the details of how long I have to accept my TC offer, but I'm pretty sure it's before my other vac scheme takes place. Can I still complete the other vac scheme having accepted my offer? (I haven't found anything in my offer letter that suggests otherwise - I also would really like the exposure of the other firm) Is it common to delay signing an offer?
(I know Jacob has mentioned he was in a similar situation with TS & NRF in the past) Thanks

You’ll need to check the T&Cs of your TC and VS offer. The VS offer could potentially be the one to block you from attending if you have accepted a TC elsewhere more than your TC offer.

If there is anything on either document, you could try to delay your TC acceptance period. If you are a penultimate year student you could use the code of best recruitment practice to state you should have until mid September to accept.

I agree with the comment above though. If this is your dream firm, getting exposure to another firm I don’t think is really going to give you much (in all honesty). Vac schemes aren’t really a proper insight into life in a law firm. I am biased, but that opportunity could also be taken up by someone who could then secure a TC. However, it’s your prerogative to do what you want if you have no restrictions from either firm.

 

[Law2022]

Can't believe NRF completely ghosted me... never heard back post TC application so I called them and she told me to email them, I did, and never heard back...

So sorry about that!! Literally so frustrating. I never heard back from them when I requested my WG score back in February either!

 

[Legalmel_99]

Clarion PFO

 

[AA99]

Hi all, I'm currently reading 21 lessons for the 21st century by Yuval Noah Harari and there's a really interesting discussion on the future of work in light of developments in technology and the cognitive power of AI as well as some useful geopolitical insights and opinions on where humans are going. I wondered whether anybody had any book recommendations regardless of whether they're commercial awareness/law-related or just good books that are worth reading. Thanks!