Ban on pubs operating as Takeaways

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The Hospitalitur

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Jan 25, 2021
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Hi There

The government announced new regulations to stop pubs trading as off licences and I am trying to get some kind of understanding on how they have achieved this by law

You see bough pubs and off licences require a premiss licence to sell alcohol on or off the premiss. The licence for them bough is the same! The only difference is when you apply for the licence is you tick a box on the form stating if you want to sell alcohol to be consumed on the presumes and another box to sell it to be consumed off of the presumes

So in a sense a pub operates as a public house and an offline as well! But if they are banning them from operating as off licences then how do they word this in law since off licences are still allowed to trade as normal?

https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk...ight&utm_medium=OnSite&utm_campaign=copyright



https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/8/pdfs/uksi_20210008_en.pdf



https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home#businesses-and-venues
 

Jacob Miller

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  • Feb 15, 2020
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    Hi There

    The government announced new regulations to stop pubs trading as off licences and I am trying to get some kind of understanding on how they have achieved this by law

    You see bough pubs and off licences require a premiss licence to sell alcohol on or off the premiss. The licence for them bough is the same! The only difference is when you apply for the licence is you tick a box on the form stating if you want to sell alcohol to be consumed on the presumes and another box to sell it to be consumed off of the presumes

    So in a sense a pub operates as a public house and an offline as well! But if they are banning them from operating as off licences then how do they word this in law since off licences are still allowed to trade as normal?

    https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk...ight&utm_medium=OnSite&utm_campaign=copyright



    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/8/pdfs/uksi_20210008_en.pdf



    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home#businesses-and-venues
    This is a very good question and, to some degree, my answer is speculation so don't take it as gospel. I would assume any regulatory change in this manner would be phrased in such a way as to cover "licensed hospitality venues" offering such services, using the classification as a hospitality venue to differentiate it from a supermarket/ offie selling booze which doesn't offer any sort of hospitality under normal or current circumstances. That's certainly the most simplistic way I can think of it being done, but I would be really interested to hear others' views on this too! :)
     

    The Hospitalitur

    Standard Member
    Jan 25, 2021
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    Hi Jacob and thanks for your reply
    Did you get chance to check out the links (especially the second link) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/8/pdfs/uksi_20210008_en.pdf

    That first link is a trade news paper for pubs, and in there some time ago now I recall something about alcohol served in sealed containers

    But if it is what you are implying; then I wonder if applying for two licences premises one for the use of a public house and the other as an off-licence and surrender the pub licence when they do this again as a means of getting around it. what do you think?

    Thanks
    T.H
     

    Jacob Miller

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  • Feb 15, 2020
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    Hi Jacob and thanks for your reply
    Did you get chance to check out the links (especially the second link) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/8/pdfs/uksi_20210008_en.pdf

    That first link is a trade news paper for pubs, and in there some time ago now I recall something about alcohol served in sealed containers

    But if it is what you are implying; then I wonder if applying for two licences premises one for the use of a public house and the other as an off-licence and surrender the pub licence when they do this again as a means of getting around it. what do you think?

    Thanks
    T.H
    I only had a very brief look over the attached SI, but, as it only inserts amendments to other regulations and doesn't contain any contextualised information per se, I didn't have time to do a proper deep dive on the matter hence the slightly speculative nature of my response.

    In re your suggestion, it's hard to say for sure. My (very elementary) understanding of licensing laws, mainly from working in a few pubs in days gone by, is that a venue can only have one license. I think the only means a framework such as yours could be achieved would actually be to create a new, independent company with the same trading address offering no hospitality services and obtain a license for that new company. The associated costs of this would be very high though, and the accounting separations would be challenging due to essentially sharing the same stock between two legal entities. I don't see why it wouldn't work from an academic standpoint but the cost-benefit analysis would probably be quite poor in practice, especially for smaller venues with limited internal infrastructure.
     

    The Hospitalitur

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    Jan 25, 2021
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    I only had a very brief look over the attached SI, but, as it only inserts amendments to other regulations and doesn't contain any contextualised information per se, I didn't have time to do a proper deep dive on the matter hence the slightly speculative nature of my response.
    Maybe that attachment is no good then! And dose not give the info I need. Any ideas on where to look for such legislation please?

    create a new, independent company with the same trading address offering no hospitality services and obtain a license for that new company. The associated costs of this would be very high though, and the accounting separations would be challenging due to essentially sharing the same stock between two legal entities. I don't see why it wouldn't work from an academic standpoint but the cost-benefit analysis would probably be quite poor in practice, especially for smaller venues with limited internal infrastructure.
    Thats a very good idea though! But I do not see how the running costs would be high? How about creating the 2 companies with the 2 licecnes at the same time and one company remains dormant until the time comes. Then company public house can sell its stock to company off-licence.

    Do they have to be limited companies, can they just operate as sole traders?
     

    Jacob Miller

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    Maybe that attachment is no good then! And dose not give the info I need. Any ideas on where to look for such legislation please?
    You'd need the actual set of regs/ Act that the SI you attached amended, should also be available from the legislation.gov site.

    Thats a very good idea though! But I do not see how the running costs would be high? How about creating the 2 companies with the 2 licecnes at the same time and one company remains dormant until the time comes. Then company public house can sell its stock to company off-licence.

    Do they have to be limited companies, can they just operate as sole traders?
    The running costs wouldn't be high per se, I mean more in the respect of licensing costs and time to wait, as well as the associated costs of ensuring a company has the infrastructure in terms of bookkeeping, accounting, sale systems, logs etc which are all necessary for a company which has a high transaction volume like a pub/ offie. It wouldn't remotely be impossible for the pub/ company 1 to sell its stock to offie/ company 2 notwithstanding license agreements between the publican and the breweries which, I should imagine, will have certain clauses relating to resale to parties other than the general public - to that end it could cause issues.

    Again, they could theoretically operate under any business structure but, in my opinion, an operation like that would be considerably cleaner if operated via separate legal entities entirely. I would never want to run a business that's personally linked to myself, prefer doing everything through a company - can never be too careful!
     

    The Hospitalitur

    Standard Member
    Jan 25, 2021
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    You'd need the actual set of regs/ Act that the SI you attached amended, should also be available from the legislation.gov site.


    The running costs wouldn't be high per se, I mean more in the respect of licensing costs and time to wait, as well as the associated costs of ensuring a company has the infrastructure in terms of bookkeeping, accounting, sale systems, logs etc which are all necessary for a company which has a high transaction volume like a pub/ offie.
    I do the book keeping

    It wouldn't remotely be impossible for the pub/ company 1 to sell its stock to offie/ company 2 notwithstanding license agreements between the publican and the breweries which, I should imagine, will have certain clauses relating to resale to parties other than the general public - to that end it could cause issues.
    This is a free of tie pub venture with a private landlord and beer purchases will be entirely my choies where I buy from
     

    Jacob Miller

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    As Daniel says, general principles of company law and tax transparency.

    In any event though, it seems like you're here looking for legal advice? If so, it's not the most appropriate forum- I would recommend approaching a qualified solicitor for actual legal advice. Just for the avoidance of doubt, I was previously under the impression that this was a hypothetical discussion and was in no way offering you legal advice.
     
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    Jacob Miller

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    Есть кто из модераторов?
    Не могу написать в топик.
    С уважением.
    Hi,

    Unfortunately your text doesn't automatically translate on this forum and I'm unfamiliar with Cyrillic script (apologies if it's not Cyrillic and I'm getting mixed up!). I've stuck this through google translate so it could well be wrong but hopefully you can get in touch with me from reading this:


    Я модератор. Если у вас возникнут вопросы, напишите мне напрямую

    Here's hoping!
     

    The Hospitalitur

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    Jan 25, 2021
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    In any event though, it seems like you're here looking for legal advice? If so, it's not the most appropriate forum-
    I though the term corporative law. would mean law for business

    Just a quick question! do you know any thing about common law and magna carta?

     

    Jacob Miller

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    I though the term corporative law. would mean law for business

    Just a quick question! do you know any thing about common law and magna carta?

    Corporate law does indeed mean for businesses, as you put it, but the purpose of this forum is as a place for those who wish to become commercial solicitors in the future to learn and develop in terms of the application process to law firms for different jobs therein. Unfortunately, it's not a place where one can seek legal advice for issues they have. As before, I would recommend contacting a solicitor for any legal advice.

    In re the link you've sent, I'm familiar with the e-poster that was doing the rounds about 'not consenting' to the law. I can definitely confirm that it doesn't work like that and, in that case, the salon owner was fined in accordance with the law. Laws, in this country, at least, don't work on a system of consent, otherwise I could run around killing people and then simply 'not consent' to being imprisoned!
    In terms of Chapter 61 of the Magna Carta, which this story/ false claim of common law rights concerned, it was only ever drafted into the very first edition of the MC and only conferred rights on 25 Barons of the day and never the public at large. Furthermore, it was omitted from every subsequent edition of the MC. The argument has also been tested and thrown out in several courts through the commonwealth (see, e.g., Meads v Meads [2012], a Canadian case). The phrase used to describe these arguments is "Organised Pseudolegal Commercial Arguments", which is court-speak for "rubbish", more or less. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news!
     

    The Hospitalitur

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    Jan 25, 2021
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    Corporate law does indeed mean for businesses, as you put it, but the purpose of this forum is as a place for those who wish to become commercial solicitors in the future to learn and develop in terms of the application process to law firms for different jobs therein. Unfortunately, it's not a place where one can seek legal advice for issues they have. As before, I would recommend contacting a solicitor for any legal advice.
    It says she never paid any of the fines (and probabley never will!) what do you think will happen if she dose not pay?

    The theory behind the free man of the land thing is that all statutes and act of parliament are contracts because her majesty government is a limited company and they only work as a contract to contract you the other company to agree (not you the living person). Your company/ corporation is your birth certificate because that is your recite to your sister K trust



    They call this birth certificate a legal fiction because it was an agrement with your mother and the state. You did not agree to it, you where not in a position to agree to it at the time, therefore no contact exists unless you concent to it…..if all that makes seance

    Regarding murder no! That is a crime set out in magna carta and is common law of the land. But it may be a criminal offence to murder someone set out in statues and acts of parliament but they are all admiral law of the sea.
    Further more magna carta was singed by the kings earls making it an act of the crown and not the government (as government was formed 70 years after magna carta)

    Apparently your birth certificate number is filled out somewhere on the court papers if and when you are taken to court. I would be interested to know how people that do not have a birth certificate (like Gypsy Travellers) are prosecuted for offences


    Well I have read somewhere before that you need to write a letter to the queen stating that you want to have your sister k trust and birth certificate removed to become a real free man of the land
     
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    Jacob Miller

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    It says she never paid any of the fines (and probabley never will!) what do you think will happen if she dose not pay?
    I can't say for sure. If she is pursued, it could result in something like a contempt of court charge but I'm not an expert in the area.
    The theory behind the free man of the land thing is that all statutes and act of parliament are contracts because her majesty government is a limited company and they only work as a contract to contract you the other company to agree (not you the living person). Your company/ corporation is your birth certificate because that is your recite to your sister K trust
    I'm quite familiar with the content of this argument, but there is a huge amount of deeply flawed reasoning here. In any event, the Government is not a company. Over and above that, Acts of Parliament are just that: Acts of Parliament. Even if the government were a company, the government, on a legal level, is neither here nor there in the context of the legislature. To suggest that a birth certificate incorporates a natural person as a legal person is also wrong and deeply flawed logic. The law of the land is that an entity can only incorporate within the constraints of the Companies Acts, private Act or Royal Charter.
    I think what you mean here is that a birth certificate is some sort of receipt to a cestie que (pronounced 'sesty kay') trust, so I will proceed on that understanding. Cestie que is simply the ancient latin term for a beneficiary, it bears no particular relevancy here but, I think, is simply a latin gadget thrown in by the proponents of these pseudolegal arguments in an attempt to add credibility to them. Based on that vague link to beneficiaries, the only relevant provision of law I can think of here is the law of bona vacantia in intestacy upon death. This provision is in place to ensure that an intestate's estate does not simply lie to rot as a result of being unowned as this would be manifestly contrary to public interest. I am still at a complete loss as to how this bears any remote relevancy because it is the law, not a contract.

    The central tenet of contract law is that mutual consent and understanding is required to form one. To suggest that any form of law is a contract is, unfortunately, plain wrong and flies in the face of every legal principle known to man.

    They call this birth certificate a legal fiction because it was an agrement with your mother and the state. You did not agree to it, you where not in a position to agree to it at the time, therefore no contact exists unless you concent to it…..if all that makes seance
    Again, see my above comments. Enforced laws do not contracts form.

    Regarding murder no! That is a crime set out in magna carta and is common law of the land. But it may be a criminal offence to murder someone set out in statues and acts of parliament but they are all admiral law of the sea.
    Further more magna carta was singed by the kings earls making it an act of the crown and not the government (as government was formed 70 years after magna carta)
    I think you fail to see my argument here. The logic you've provided makes a presupposition that the common law somehow out-ranks legislative law, which is not the case. The two are parallel pathways which run in tandem, each supporting the other.
    The offence of murder has nothing to do with any clause of the Magna Carta still in force. The only clauses still valid are Clauses 1 (in part), 13, 39 and 40. None of these provisions concern the offence of murder. Bearing in mind that your presupposition of the superiority of the common law is flawed, and the crime of murder is not set out in the MC, it should be reasonable to extend your logic to the offence of murder: after all, based on that very same logic, we cannot be bound by any contracts to which we do not consent, and every law of the land bar those from the Magna Carta constitutes a mere contract. To that end, one should simply be allowed to refuse consent to being constrained by the law on the crime of murder, no?

    Apparently your birth certificate number is filled out somewhere on the court papers if and when you are taken to court. I would be interested to know how people that do not have a birth certificate (like Gypsy Travellers) are prosecuted for offences
    Birth certificates as a means of identifying those who are involved in a trial of any form is only relevant in determining the parental rights and responsibilities of the unmarried father post-01/07/2006 insofar as I am aware. Identification for court appearances is made through other means for the same reason: the necessity of the presence of a birth certificate necessarily presupposes that the subject of the enquiry lives by the societal norms and values of our country and, as such, would marginalise other groups who do not always live by those norms. It would also not be in the interests of justice.

    Well I have read somewhere before that you need to write a letter to the queen stating that you want to have your sister k trust and birth certificate removed to become a real free man of the land
    I think my above comments make clear that this idea is incorrect.

    I do not know much about this. but people seam to bang on about artical 61 on every march/ protest I attend
    I mean this with all due respect, but anyone could be correct about the contents of an ancient clause of the magna carts when it is available online for the world to see. That doesn't change the fact, however, that clause 61 has long since been redacted and abolished and so can form no basis for arguments of law.
     
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    Jaysen

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    I'm going to lock this thread now, this isn't really the place for this kind of discussion. Thanks.
     
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