General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[Alice G]

Does anyone have a good list of questions to expect at an end of vac-scheme interview? Specifically questions related to your time on the scheme.

I want to make sure I can prepare for these by recording relevant things throughout the two weeks.

I’ve found a few relevant questions from the TCLA VS guides, which are great!, and the lists of standard TC interview questions.

Any pointers would be really appreciated!

I really would recommend taking note of everything. If you have a conversation at the coffee area, head straight back to your desk and record who you spoke to and details of the conversation. Note down your approach and strategies to tasks and reflect - what did you feel you did well on and where could you improve. Note down what you have enjoyed, what you found challenging and always note what you are learning about the firm.

They will really want to hear that you have learned things so has anything in the experience reinforced that commercial law is for you? Make sure you note this in detail to be able to relay back to interviewers. They will want your 'why them' to be much more robust and personal so do make note of every interaction. they may ask you what you found exciting and challenging so make sure you are always noting down your vac scheme journey to answer these and to say how you overcame the challenges you note.

Your notes should be a diary of your scheme and the work you have done so you can look back and prepare your answers in the final interview in a much more tailored and personalised way.

 

[NickMcK]

I really would recommend taking note of everything. If you have a conversation at the coffee area, head straight back to your desk and record who you spoke to and details of the conversation. Note down your approach and strategies to tasks and reflect - what did you feel you did well on and where could you improve. Note down what you have enjoyed, what you found challenging and always note what you are learning about the firm.

They will really want to hear that you have learned things so has anything in the experience reinforced that commercial law is for you? Make sure you note this in detail to be able to relay back to interviewers. They will want your 'why them' to be much more robust and personal so do make note of every interaction. they may ask you what you found exciting and challenging so make sure you are always noting down your vac scheme journey to answer these and to say how you overcame the challenges you note.

Your notes should be a diary of your scheme and the work you have done so you can look back and prepare your answers in the final interview in a much more tailored and personalised way.

That's really helpful and definitely a more personal way of thinking about then I had in mind - thank you!

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Big request to everyone. If you are still studying at university, please could you PM me if your university is allowing you to not formally be assessed on all of your modules this year. I have been notified of at least one law faculty doing this (allowing them submit assessments for 3 out of their 6 modules), and I am keen to understand how common an approach it is. I am speaking to graduate recruiters about this to understand their concerns about this too.

Thank you for everyone’s responses so far.

I am gathering comments from Graduate Recruiters, but general theme so far is:

- if you have the option to not be assessed on up to 60 credits of your degree, sit those modules anyway!

- don’t rely on “no detriment” policies. Firms will be more interested in the grades you achieved in individual modules still, not the overall grade you were awarded because of no detriment policies.

- even if grades/modules are not going to be included in your formal transcript, it will be obvious that they are either missing or that there is no formal grade attached to them.

- You will be looked upon more favourably attempting all module assessments and getting a good grade, than only sitting 50-66% of your assessments and getting an exceptional grade.

- exceptions to the above are those who experience extenuating circumstances during the lockdown. By this, I don’t mean lockdown as such (as this applies to everyone), I mean further circumstances that apply more uniquely to you.

 

[hopelesscaseofwhat]

For those waiting on Baker McKenzie:

They just sent out an email explaining that they will get back to us on the 8th, not 4th, of May, but virtual assessment centres will be held on the same days as planned.

They do mention they have a high volume of applications so I am once again concerned that they put everybody who applied through to the VI stage and are starting their serious screening process now.

 

[hopelesscaseofwhat]

Thank you for everyone’s responses so far.

I am gathering comments from Graduate Recruiters, but general theme so far is:

- if you have the option to not be assessed on up to 60 credits of your degree, sit those modules anyway!

- don’t rely on “no detriment” policies. Firms will be more interested in the grades you achieved in individual modules still, not the overall grade you were awarded because of no detriment policies.

- even if grades/modules are not going to be included in your formal transcript, it will be obvious that they are either missing or that there is no formal grade attached to them.

- You will be looked upon more favourably attempting all module assessments and getting a good grade, than only sitting 50-66% of your assessments and getting an exceptional grade.

- exceptions to the above are those who experience extenuating circumstances during the lockdown. By this, I don’t mean lockdown as such (as this applies to everyone), I mean further circumstances that apply more uniquely to you.

I hope this isn't a rude question and I'm not overstepping my bounds by asking, but howwould it make a difference to them if students are writing their exams later?

 

[TChopeful2021]

Thank you for everyone’s responses so far.

I am gathering comments from Graduate Recruiters, but general theme so far is:

- if you have the option to not be assessed on up to 60 credits of your degree, sit those modules anyway!

- don’t rely on “no detriment” policies. Firms will be more interested in the grades you achieved in individual modules still, not the overall grade you were awarded because of no detriment policies.

- even if grades/modules are not going to be included in your formal transcript, it will be obvious that they are either missing or that there is no formal grade attached to them.

- You will be looked upon more favourably attempting all module assessments and getting a good grade, than only sitting 50-66% of your assessments and getting an exceptional grade.

- exceptions to the above are those who experience extenuating circumstances during the lockdown. By this, I don’t mean lockdown as such (as this applies to everyone), I mean further circumstances that apply more uniquely to you.

With regards to the 'no detriment' policy, my university has done things quite differently from what you have mentioned. For us, each student will first receive a 'baseline' grade calculated from the average of our semester 1 modules and exams sat from the previous years.

Any module grade that is lower than the 'baseline' grade will automatically be replaced with the baseline mark. For example: If our baseline is a 68% and we receive a 55% in a module sat in the second semester, the module mark will show up as a 68% on our transcript.

As some of us won't really be able to benefit from the 'no detriment' policy because our grades in the second semester have already proven to be much higher than our baseline marks, we were wondering if it's worth explicitly informing the firms that our marks are indeed our 'raw' marks.

 

[amb98]

For those waiting on Baker McKenzie:

They just sent out an email explaining that they will get back to us on the 8th, not 4th, of May, but virtual assessment centres will be held on the same days as planned.

They do mention they have a high volume of applications so I am once again concerned that they put everybody who applied through to the VI stage and are starting their serious screening process now.

Logistically this would be very difficult as I’m guessing they must have had well over 1,000 applicants, so likely not all would have got through to VI!

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

I hope this isn't a rude question and I'm not overstepping my bounds by asking, but howwould it make a difference to them if students are writing their exams later?

not rude, but I am not sure what you mean by this.

This isn’t about sitting exams later, this is about you not being formally assessed in modules and people choosing to not sit/submit essays for modules, because it’s an option the university are giving students

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

With regards to the 'no detriment' policy, my university has done things quite differently from what you have mentioned. For us, each student will first receive a 'baseline' grade calculated from the average of our semester 1 modules and exams sat from the previous years.

Any module grade that is lower than the 'baseline' grade will automatically be replaced with the baseline mark. For example: If our baseline is a 68% and we receive a 55% in a module sat in the second semester, the module mark will show up as a 68% on our transcript.

As some of us won't really be able to benefit from the 'no detriment' policy because our grades in the second semester have already proven to be much higher than our baseline marks, we were wondering if it's worth explicitly informing the firms that our marks are indeed our 'raw' marks.

Surely your “raw” marks would be what are on your transcript anyway, if they are higher than your baseline?

 

[Jason S]

I’m surprised that you will receive your baseline grade as your ‘actual’ mark on your transcript. I would have thought that, as an incentive for people to still work hard, the grade you actually achieved would be the one shown to employees on transcripts.

So in that scenario, if a person with a 68% average achieved 40% in commercial law, the law firm would have no idea of their true grade?

Brilliant news for people who have achieved good grades up until now

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

I’m surprised that you will receive your baseline grade as your ‘actual’ mark on your transcript. I would have thought that, as an incentive for people to still work hard, the grade you actually achieved would be the one shown to employees on transcripts.

So in that scenario, if a person with a 68% average achieved 40% in commercial law, the law firm would have no idea of their true grade?

Brilliant news for people who have achieved good grades up until now

completely this - most universities from the looks of it are allowing candidates to submit assessments for all modules so to improve their existing position.

The baseline grade is a “no detriment” policy - it means anyone won’t score below the grade they achieved last year/last semester.

 

[Ifmhouse4]

completely this - most universities from the looks of it are allowing candidates to submit assessments for all modules so to improve their existing position.

The baseline grade is a “no detriment” policy - it means anyone won’t score below the grade they achieved last year/last semester.

Hi Jessica,

My university hasn't changed too much. We are still completing our exams, but we have 24 hours to submit the assessment. In terms of the 'no detriment policy', they allow for our worst 30 credits of final year to be discounted in terms of working out our overall grade.

 

[bethbristol]

I’m surprised that you will receive your baseline grade as your ‘actual’ mark on your transcript. I would have thought that, as an incentive for people to still work hard, the grade you actually achieved would be the one shown to employees on transcripts.

So in that scenario, if a person with a 68% average achieved 40% in commercial law, the law firm would have no idea of their true grade?

Brilliant news for people who have achieved good grades up until now

I completely understand as someone who has worked hard in other years to get good grades that this might seem unfair but I just think in the current circumstances doing it differently is just not realistic. Especially combined with the fact that lots of teaching has been missed this year due to strikes. The uni that is doing this has complete 100% exams for the year held in summer and have no formal work submitted throughout the year - making it pretty impossible for them to demand 100% of the work at this time. It is concerning though as a student, when every single uni is doing different things to be able to work out whether the policy your uni is taking is going to disadvantage you in the long run

 

[TChopeful2021]

Surely your “raw” marks would be what are on your transcript anyway, if they are higher than your baseline?

We might be paranoid but some of us fear how law firms might perceive the value our grades if they find out about this policy so I guess we just want the opportunity to clarify that our marks on the transcript are NOT our baseline marks?

 

[TChopeful2021]

I’m surprised that you will receive your baseline grade as your ‘actual’ mark on your transcript. I would have thought that, as an incentive for people to still work hard, the grade you actually achieved would be the one shown to employees on transcripts.

So in that scenario, if a person with a 68% average achieved 40% in commercial law, the law firm would have no idea of their true grade?

Brilliant news for people who have achieved good grades up until now

From the correspondence with my course director, that appears to be the case. (The condition being the individual must at least pass the module for the policy to apply). A few of us strongly disagree with this policy for a whole number of reasons but most people love it.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Hi Jessica,

My university hasn't changed too much. We are still completing our exams, but we have 24 hours to submit the assessment. In terms of the 'no detriment policy', they allow for our worst 30 credits of final year to be discounted in terms of working out our overall grade.

Assuming that exams are open book? Are they timed or you just have to complete them within 24 hours?

I think this is the issue - universities are not doing this consistently. So there is a massive risk that even if your university is being exceptional generous and allowing people to choose to not sit assessments, when it comes to applications you will be up against candidates for VS/TC applicants who haven’t had that option, or where they have, have chosen to sit all their assessments anyway.

Firms value the collective weight of individual module results. It’s why firms will question someone who has module scores of 48, 48, 74 and 74 (61% average) much more than someone who has 60, 61, 61, 62 - there is a question as to how they learn different subjects or manage their time effectively.

Studying 6 x 20 credit modules is more difficult than studying 3 x 20 modules, and so will look more favourable on an application.

In your instance, firms will still want to know your grades for the worst 30 credit, even if they don’t count towards your degree. It’s no different to firms caring about first year grades which very rarely count towards a degree.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

We might be paranoid but some of us fear how law firms might perceive the value our grades if they find out about this policy so I guess we just want the opportunity to clarify that our marks on the transcript are NOT our baseline marks?

I’m pretty sure your university would have to identify where grades were calculated from other means that assessments.

But when it comes to applying, I would ensure in any “additional information” section you add something like “Grades achieved in 2020 were not based on adjustments made across the university, and were achieved grades based on assessment submitted/sat in the 2019-20 academic year”

 

[Ifmhouse4]

Assuming that exams are open book? Are they timed or you just have to complete them within 24 hours?

I think this is the issue - universities are not doing this consistently. So there is a massive risk that even if your university is being exceptional generous and allowing people to choose to not sit assessments, when it comes to applications you will be up against candidates for VS/TC applicants who haven’t had that option, or where they have, have chosen to sit all their assessments anyway.

Firms value the collective weight of individual module results. It’s why firms will question someone who has module scores of 48, 48, 74 and 74 (61% average) much more than someone who has 60, 61, 61, 62 - there is a question as to how they learn different subjects or manage their time effectively.

Studying 6 x 20 credit modules is more difficult than studying 3 x 20 modules, and so will look more favourable on an application.

In your instance, firms will still want to know your grades for the worst 30 credit, even if they don’t count towards your degree. It’s no different to firms caring about first year grades which very rarely count towards a degree.

Yes my exams are open book! They say that the exams should only take us the original allocated 3 hour time frame, but they have to allow for international students timings etc, so we just have to submit within that time frame.

I completely agree! it would be fair if all universities had responded in the same/similar ways, as some of my friends at other RG universities are completing coursework now with nearly 2 months to do it! But nevertheless cracking on and hopefully should be fine anyway!

 

[hopelesscaseofwhat]

not rude, but I am not sure what you mean by this.

This isn’t about sitting exams later, this is about you not being formally assessed in modules and people choosing to not sit/submit essays for modules, because it’s an option the university are giving students

Oh no, I'm so sorry! I'm completely out of the loop. I assumed students were getting the choice to be assessed either *now* through less traditional means or later next year perhaps, by the regular method. This might have something to do with the fact that one of my friends abroad is doing an online degree and her university is considering offering students a choice, but the decision-makers still appear to be quite confused about what they want to do

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Yes my exams are open book! They say that the exams should only take us the original allocated 3 hour time frame, but they have to allow for international students timings etc, so we just have to submit within that time frame.

I completely agree! it would be fair if all universities had responded in the same/similar ways, as some of my friends at other RG universities are completing coursework now with nearly 2 months to do it! But nevertheless cracking on and hopefully should be fine anyway!

I have no issue with either modules being moved to essays or to online exams like yours. Both seems reasonable to me.

What recruiters do not feel comfortable with is students being able to choose whether to not sit or submit for up to 60 credits. This seems absolutely absurd when other adjustments have already been made - in some cases, this option is alongside assessment adjustments and a no detriment policy, so basically they are getting a triple locked protection.