TCLA Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion Thread 2024-25

[floral.tcla]

Can we just (virtually) frolick in the sunshine and stop arguing

 

[aphelion]

The partner interview is discrimination and the best way to get an offer is to have a partner like you.

It becomes a lottery based on who your interviewer is and how they perceive you. There is nothing fair or objective about it.

Unfortunately there is always a possibility that discriminatory attitudes will influence hiring at any stage of the process.

For example, the name on your application will give away whether you are male or female and may also indicate your race. Even if your name is hidden when your application is reviewed, the type of work experience or extracurriculars you have can, for example, indicate your class background. And if we zoom out even further, structural disadvantage makes it harder for people from certain groups to even be in a position to make a competitive application to begin with.

Of course, at an interview, it's easier to spot people's race, sex, disability etc. and take a biased view, but this would be a problem even firms they didn't allow partners or associates to interview you, as you suggested, because any interviewer will have some level of bias. I'm sure every firm evaluates its processes to ensure they are as objective as possible, for example through competency or commercial interviews where candidates are given numerical scores based on the content of their responses.

At the end of the day, though, law is fundamentally a people business, and firms want to hire people who work well with others and can get on with clients. Sometimes someone gets a bad interviewer who makes it impossible to build a rapport with them, and that's the interviewer's fault. But if someone is consistently failing to build a rapport with interviewers, this suggests a need to brush up on people skills. Given that most people can develop people skills with practice, and that these skills are essential to the career, I would argue it's not discrimination to reject someone who lacks such skills.

 

[Logan1101]

Unfortunately there is always a possibility that discriminatory attitudes will influence hiring at any stage of the process.

For example, the name on your application will give away whether you are male or female and may also indicate your race. Even if your name is hidden when your application is reviewed, the type of work experience or extracurriculars you have can, for example, indicate your class background. And if we zoom out even further, structural disadvantage makes it harder for people from certain groups to even be in a position to make a competitive application to begin with.

Of course, at an interview, it's easier to spot people's race, sex, disability etc. and take a biased view, but this would be a problem even firms they didn't allow partners or associates to interview you, as you suggested, because any interviewer will have some level of bias. I'm sure every firm evaluates its processes to ensure they are as objective as possible, for example through competency or commercial interviews where candidates are given numerical scores based on the content of their responses.

At the end of the day, though, law is fundamentally a people business, and firms want to hire people who work well with others and can get on with clients. Sometimes someone gets a bad interviewer who makes it impossible to build a rapport with them, and that's the interviewer's fault. But if someone is consistently failing to build a rapport with interviewers, this suggests a need to brush up on people skills. Given that most people can develop people skills with practice, and that these skills are essential to the career, I would argue it's not discrimination to reject someone who lacks such skills.

Define ‘people skills’ then?

 

[Andrei Radu]

@Ram Sabaratnam @jessicabooker @Amma Usman @Andrei Radu Could you please provide some tips on completing a candidate profile ahead of a vacation scheme. What sort of things would you put in Work experience, Interests and activities section?

Hi @summerk27 I think this will depend on word count limits and the general expectations you think the firm has for the profile, but normally it will just be a short description containing educational background, significant achievements, career interests, and one-two extracurriculars/hobbies. I have quoted bellow posts form @Ram Sabaratnam and @Jessica Booker on this issue, and also one where I give one of my own VS profile as an example.

Hiya @KBanana


Not a silly question at all. In my experience, the structure of your bio will usually depend on how formal the firm expects it to be and whether they've provided specific instructions. For example, during my vacation schemes, some firms included clear prompts in their emails, asking us to mention specific details such as university attended, interesting facts about ourselves, or even our favourite movie or hobby. If the tone is intended to be more casual or friendly, you might want to introduce yourself in the first person, saying something along the lines of: "Hi! I'm Ram, a recent LLB graduate from UCL. I was born and raised in Canada, and in my spare time, I really enjoy pro bono volunteer work at my university's legal clinic, travelling, and visiting museums and galleries."

If the bio is expected to be more formal or professional, I find that writing it in the third person usually is helpful. In that case, I'd say something like: "Ram Sabaratnam is a recent LLB graduate from University College London. In his spare time, he enjoys writing for the Justice Gap and volunteering at his university’s refugee law clinic." It may be worth clarifying with graduate recruitment team directly, just to make sure you write the bio in a way that matches the firm's expectations. You can just confirm with them how formal the tone should be and if there is any particular word count they have in mind.

Hope that helps!

Has the firm given you an example or any guidance on how to write it? A lot of firms do so that your writing is going to be fairly consistent with other vacation scheme students. If they have given this to you, then always follow their structure and guidance first.

If they haven't provided anything to you, then something like the following length would be appropriate:

Jess studied Economics and Social Studies at the University of Manchester, graduating with a first-class honours in 2004. Since then, she has worked in the Early Careers sector for a range of companies across the legal, professional services, investment and FMCG sectors. Before her career, Jess was a Chef, working in various pubs and also as a Chalet host in the French Alps. She continues to love both cooking and skiing, as well as trying to keep up with her hyperactive dog, Dennis. Jess looks forward to understanding more about the firm's clients during the vacation scheme, as well as learning more about the firm's diversity initiatives.

It might be that they want you to write in the first person though - I have just written in the third person due to habit!

Ultimately try to include:

- Key and relevant facts about your background
- 1 or 2 key achievements (I included my degree classification)
- Something about your interests - what you do outside of work/study
- Something interesting about you - maybe something more unique (why I always throw in the fact I was a chef)
- If you feel comfortable doing so, something slightly light-hearted or that could be a conversation starter (why I reference my dog. Dennis!).
- Adding some kind of reference as to what you hope to gain by attending the scheme

I do not have much to add to what @Jessica Booker said here, just thought to give you an example of a bio I wrote which the firm said was good:

Andrei is a second-year law student at University College London. He has developed an interest in commercial law through his studies, having been awarded the Simon Wallace Memorial Prize for the highest Year 1 grade in Contract Law. He went on to complete a one-month legal internship at DLA Piper, an experience which confirmed his desire to become a solicitor.

Besides law, Andrei has a passion for philosophy. In 2022, he represented Romania in the International Philosophy Olympiad was awarded an honorary mention. In his free time, he also enjoys watching football – his favourite team is FC Barcelona.

 

[aphelion]

Define ‘people skills’ then?

Sure! I've actually been working on this myself recently as it's a huge weak point of mine, and I really like how Vanessa Van Edwards deals with the topic. She's written a few books and has a website/YouTube channel - her interview on Diary of a CEO was fantastic and I'd highly recommend.

She argues that being successful socially involves projecting the correct levels of 1) warmth and 2) competence. People who come across as warm but not competent are overlooked and respected less than they should be, people who come across as competent but not warm may find it tough to emotionally connect with people, and people who come across as neither struggle the most.

Understanding where you fall on the spectrum and how to develop your own warmth and competence can really help. VVE discusses 'cues', i.e. body language signals which help convey these qualities. These are really effective. She also discusses how to carry conversations with people, which is another key element of connecting with others.

There are lots of different 'gurus' in this area and this model might not resonate with you - if so, keep looking for one that does! My key point is that there are concrete steps you can take to improve how well you come across to others. This requires a lot of practice and sometimes embarrassing yourself as you figure it out, but that's the nature of getting better at anything, particularly something inherently social.

 

[Chris Brown]

Here's the thing I've already screwed up assessment centres with Freshfields and Hogan Lovells so I'm not so confident here. I need to get polished like the other candidates by getting interview prep otherwise nothing changes.😅

The partner interview is discrimination and the best way to get an offer is to have a partner like you.

It becomes a lottery based on who your interviewer is and how they perceive you. There is nothing fair or objective about it.

I can understand why you feel that the partner interview can be slightly discriminatory. There is definitely an element of luck involved. There is also still a lot of bias and prejudice against people that are visibly ethnic minority or poc, and people that come from socially mobile backgrounds. Even at application stage, as @aphelion has explained, there are so many different ways bias and prejudice could affect our chances of success. Seeing as though you got past the application stage and got AC invites for Hogan Lovells and Freshfields, it is safe to say that the firms’ saw a lot of potential in you. We do not get to control who we get in interviews, which is why I think you believe it comes down to luck. 🥲

Ultimately however, most of the ‘luck’ comes from us. How well we prepare for these interviews is what makes the difference between a successful interview and an unsuccessful interview. I can’t speak on every firm, but I believe there are many firms out there that ensure the partner interview is as fair and objective as possible (e.g., Willkie), whose partner interview is fully CV-blind. The only thing(s) the partner(s) know in advance of the interview is our name and whether we studied a law or non-law degree. The stage before it (written exercise), is also CV-blind. The associates that mark them do not know who they belong to, which ensures that the best talent get to interview. 🙂

At the point we reach the interview, the ball is entirely in our court. The direction of the partner interview is in our control, based on the answers we give. I have seen your question (above) on what people skills are. To give some examples, you need effective communication (the ability to speak clearly and concisely) and a willingness and ability to showcase your personality (a sense of humour, charisma and enthusiasm). These are crucial qualities that every aspiring trainee associate needs. The legal profession is a client facing, people-driven industry. If someone lacks the ‘people skills’, it is likely they will not have a successful interview. 🥲

There is an element of accountability that does need to be taken. It is not right to assume there was definitive bias, prejudice or discrimination in the interview, which was the sole deciding factor in the partner choosing not to proceed with your application post interview. Partners are assessing a range of things, such as our motivation for a career in (city) law, their firm, a particular practice area or industry sector, our range of competencies and our commercial awareness. If any of these things are deemed to need further improvement, the partner can and will decide to not make an offer. That is not necessarily the same as the partner deciding to not make an offer because the interviewee had an accent, was a poc or went to a state school (obvious discrimination). 🫤

Ultimately, there needs to be a balance between being competent and being a person with character. It can be hard to work out what that balance should look like, but that is where preparation comes into play. I am positive you can and will succeed in your applications, with a bit more targeted preparation! Best of luck in the rest of your applications. If you have any questions about interview preparation, you can always ask on the forum or PM people, who will be happy to help! 🙂​

 

[jacksollaf]

King & Spalding training contract AC!!!! Does anyone know what the application process is? im trying to determine if its worth it or not cuz im doing my year abroad and they want me to come to their London office next week

 

[BillSikes]

Anything from Winckworth?

 

[trainee4u]

King & Spalding training contract AC!!!! Does anyone know what the application process is? im trying to determine if its worth it or not cuz im doing my year abroad and they want me to come to their London office next week

It's sometimes possible to do this remotely, but less likely for smaller cohorts. You can ask though.

 

[Kakaboo]

WBD PFO… my scores were 9.8.8.8 and I got highest and highest. Not really sure what else I could of done there haha

 

[User5678]

WBD PFO… my scores were 9.8.8.8 and I got highest and highest. Not really sure what else I could of done there haha

Yes I’m in a similar boat, I don’t even feel bad at this point😂 nothing more I could genuinely score and I have a lot of legal and non legal work experience :/

 

[BobThebIlly]

Guys does anyone know what the “offer an interview” scheme means? Does it mean that you will be guaranteed an interview and does it apply to vac schemes or is it just for TCs?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Jessica Booker]

The partner interview is discrimination and the best way to get an offer is to have a partner like you.

It becomes a lottery based on who your interviewer is and how they perceive you. There is nothing fair or objective about it.

I don’t think it’s productive to state a whole group of people as being discriminatory, just as it wouldn’t be productive to assume all of them are not. Partners are not a homogenous group.

Good interviewers (no matter what their job title or seniority) will be able to put their conscious or even unconscious biases aside. Many employers ensure there is interviewer training to help support this, but also I have seen people pulled off of interview panels because they have continued to show behaviours that are not fair/consistent.

Any process heavily reliant on humans will never be perfect (unfortunately) but many employers will put significant effort and reviews in place to ensure discrimination does not happen, not just for the integrity of the recruitment process, but put honestly, also out of fear of the financial and PR ramifications if they are found to be so, not only the direct costs of a tribunal but also the indirect costs of potentially losing clients off the back of it.

 

[Chris Brown]

Guys does anyone know what the “offer an interview” scheme means? Does it mean that you will be guaranteed an interview and does it apply to vac schemes or is it just for TCs?

Thanks in advance!

Is this the disability confident scheme? I think SH and TS are signatories. If you meet their minimum entry criteria (grades, application screening, test scores), you are guaranteed an interview. You have to opt in though by ticking the box. I think it’s for both VS and TC. I think there may be higher entry criteria for DTC though. 🙂​

 

[trainee4u]

Guys does anyone know what the “offer an interview” scheme means? Does it mean that you will be guaranteed an interview and does it apply to vac schemes or is it just for TCs?

Thanks in advance!

Typically, no, it doesn't at all.

1. it's not a legally binding obligation
2. it's subject to meeting the "minimum criteria", which they will never disclose.

I have ticked the box, and not been offered an interview.

While it certainly appears to imply that you have an increased chance of an interview, whether this is the case, in the absence of any statutory oversight, FOI, etc. nobody can be sure.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Define ‘people skills’ then?

To name a few:

Verbal communication skills
Self awareness
Emotional intelligence
Being able to read a room and the people in it
Collaboration
A willingness to learn from others
A willingness to impart your knowledge on others
Active listening
Negotiation
Flexibility/adaptability
Patience
Assertiveness/confidence

 

[billyonthespeeddial]

The partner interview is discrimination and the best way to get an offer is to have a partner like you.

It becomes a lottery based on who your interviewer is and how they perceive you. There is nothing fair or objective about it.

I think everyone's already explained why this kind of thinking isn't entirely correct. I just want to add that, even if there may be an element of prejudice to every interview, the Graduate Recruitment Team is just as likely to dislike an individual. So your argument would basically lead to a system where firms don't interview before hiring.

I'd also like to say that I understand your frustration. There has been a few times when I have felt that a member of a firm did not like something about me which was a core part of my identity, which was not a flaw and not something I could change. But most lawyers are not like this.

 

[Ash4202]

White & Case summer VS!!! genuinely in shock rn

 

[trainee4u]

Define ‘people skills’ then?

I asked ChatGPT about your reply:

The reply "Define 'people skills' then?" doesn’t demonstrate great people skills. While it raises a relevant question about clarifying the term, its tone might come across as abrupt or dismissive, depending on the context.
Good people skills involve effective communication, empathy, and the ability to maintain a positive interaction—even in a debate. A more thoughtful reply might look like this:
"That's an interesting point. Could you elaborate on what specific traits or behaviors you mean by 'people skills'? It'd be helpful to have a clearer definition."
This approach fosters collaboration and shows a willingness to engage constructively while asking for clarification. If you're writing on a forum, tone and wording can make all the difference in building rapport and demonstrating people skills. Would you like help crafting a reply?

I don't particularly agree with its analysis in that my perspective would be that the definition of "people skills" is easily accessible via Google, and it would ultimately demonstrate better people skills to go away and read that and then perhaps come back with a more specific reply that demonstrates that you have done research, which is more respectful of other people, who don't then need to answer questions that have textbook answers.

There are different issues that could be at play.

* It's definitely understandable that if you have been a member of this forum for three years that you might be getting frustrated at the recruitment process, and it's understandable that you would express that
* We know that some people might be very good at law but perhaps struggle with people skills, and there might be specific roles where those people would thrive.
* However it appears to me that your responses lack the necessary self-reflection that will help you to achieve your goals.

This is not intended as a personal attack on you or anything: I understand that I, personally, have not got a TC, and likewise do not *deserve* a TC, because I have failed personally to achieve and put in the work at all the necessary stages to achieve that goal.

I can also see perhaps that my skills might work better in different areas than others, giving me a better chance following certain routes to get a TC than others, and ultimately my perspective is that this a *me* problem, in that I am selling something (myself) and just need to find a buyer. If I'm not marketable, my question is why. And so far I've found answers about where I can improve. And that's motivating for me because I can see the necessary steps to do that, including for example attempting to mask a tendency to apply in ways abruptly or defensively.

The problem from my perspective (and I assume other forum readers) is that your posts appear not to demonstrate the process of analysis and reflection that I would personally want to follow before making conclusions such as those that you have made.

OTOH this is only a forum on the internet and it's valid to make lighthearted posts or those not intended entirely seriously, so to the extent that I or you are letting off steam then it might be best to withdraw from subsequent discussions rather than attempt to defend a perhaps ill-considered or lighthearted first post.

 

[charleyemmett]

has anyone just gotten an email from Howard Kennedy to do the rare recruitment form?

I also received this. I have just now completed this information. Have you received an email to complete the test yet?