General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[TCLA Community Assistant]

So for law students/graduates it will be the 2024 cycle, or will it still be the 2023 cycle for them too?

I suspect many firms will want to move all trainees to the same system, so suspect they will move at the same time as the non law grads.

If firms did allow both qualifications models to run at the same time, they technically could still offer TCs until 2033 (if I remember correctly). The new system provides much greater flexibility for law firms though - there will be many more advantages of moving to the new system as their regulatory requirements are far less under the SQE than they are under the LPC/TC route.

 

[JayB]

SQE is 4 components:

1. Stage 1 assessment
2. Stage 2 assessment
3. 2 years’ qualifying work experience
4. Meeting the SRA suitability criteria (what everyone has to complete now anyway)

As it stands (as the assessments are still being piloted)...

SQE1 includes two exams that are single best answer multiple choice (closed book). The two exams are sat together but cover different subjects.

1. Business Law and Practice; Dispute Resolution; Contract; Tort; Legal System of England and Wales; Constitutional and Administrative Law and EU Law and Legal Services
2. Property Practice; Wills and the Administration of Estates; Solicitors Accounts; Land Law; Trusts; Criminal Law and Practice.

For SQE2, you will be assessed in client interviewing with linked attendance note/legal analysis, advocacy, legal writing, legal research, legal drafting and case and matter analysis. This will be much more like a viva (like those seen in medicine) - it will be a mixture of assessed work (eg writing) but also “mock simulations” where I suspect you will meet “actor assessors” playing a role of a client.

Qualifying work experience (QWE) can be accumulated at anytime (pre or post SQE stage 1 and 2). It can be any work a qualified solicitor is willing to sign off (or a designated compliance officer). You can accumulate that QWE across 4 different organisations.

Thank you Jessica for the thorough detail. Am I right to assume the QWE is the experience received from the 2-year training contract?

 

[amb98]

I suspect many firms will want to move all trainees to the same system, so suspect they will move at the same time as the non law grads.

If firms did allow both qualifications models to run at the same time, they technically could still offer TCs until 2033 (if I remember correctly). The new system provides much greater flexibility for law firms though - there will be many more advantages of moving to the new system as their regulatory requirements are far less under the SQE than they are under the LPC/TC route.

Hi Jessica,

Do you think it will become more difficult/competitive to obtain NQ positions as there will be more people qualifying through the SQE route, through various forms of qualifying work experience?

 

[Lr1]

Hi Jessica,

Do you think it will become more difficult/competitive to obtain NQ positions as there will be more people qualifying through the SQE route, through various forms of qualifying work experience?

I suspect where you train will become even more important, 4x6 months of an unconnected training contract vs 2 years of developing skills with lawyers who have trained people before. The big training firms will still offer the standard training contract of 2 years. The SQE will just turn a glut of LPC students that can't get a TC into a glut of NQs with shoddy training who can't get NQ positions with firms because of their training.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Thank you Jessica for the thorough detail. Am I right to assume the QWE is the experience received from the 2-year training contract?

it could be a two year training contract, but unlike now it doesn’t have to be.

 

[amb98]

I suspect where you train will become even more important, 4x6 months of an unconnected training contract vs 2 years of developing skills with lawyers who have trained people before. The big training firms will still offer the standard training contract of 2 years. The SQE will just turn a glut of LPC students that can't get a TC into a glut of NQs with shoddy training who can't get NQ positions with firms because of their training.

Thank you for replying. Can you please clarify what you mean by “4x6 months of an unconnected training contract vs 2 years of developing skills with lawyers who have trained people before.”

Is the “unconnected TC” going to be offered under the SQE?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Hi Jessica,

Do you think it will become more difficult/competitive to obtain NQ positions as there will be more people qualifying through the SQE route, through various forms of qualifying work experience?

not necessarily - there could be fewer people (if people are not passing the SQE), especially in the early years of the SQE.

There could be more people qualifying though, so NQ roles could be more difficult to obtain, but I would expect that to only be if you were jumping ship to another firm at NQ.

 

[JayB]

it could be a two year training contract, but unlike now it doesn’t have to be.

But law firms will still offer a two year training contract regardless? I’m sure those who are getting any experience signed off will be less adequate than those with those with a training contract? Well those are my thoughts

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

I suspect where you train will become even more important, 4x6 months of an unconnected training contract vs 2 years of developing skills with lawyers who have trained people before. The big training firms will still offer the standard training contract of 2 years. The SQE will just turn a glut of LPC students that can't get a TC into a glut of NQs with shoddy training who can't get NQ positions with firms because of their training.

Although this may be the case in some cases, I suspect it won’t be in many. The SQE format allows firms to headhunt “trainees” before the qualified and could even offer them earlier qualification (and qualification salaries) than a firm they train with for 2 years.

For some firms gaining quality, relevant experience at 2-4 firms may be more attractive than 2 years at one firm where two seats were completely irrelevant.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

But law firms will still offer a two year training contract regardless? I’m sure those who are getting any experience signed off will be less adequate than those with those with a training contract? Well those are my thoughts

yes - many will continue to offer 2 year programmes. But for the first time they don’t have to commit to the 2 years - if you didn’t pass the SQE or didn’t pass a probation period, you could only be there for less than 6 months.

Firms will be able to offer whatever they want though. They could offer direct roles (with no seat rotations), they could offer 6-12 month contracts.

 

[JayB]

yes - many will continue to offer 2 year programmes. But for the first time they don’t have to commit to the 2 years - if you didn’t pass the SQE or didn’t pass a probation period, you could only be there for less than 6 months.

How long will the probation period be? Around 3-6 months, do trainees at the moment have a probation period? Confused on that sense.

 

[Lr1]

Thank you for replying. Can you please clarify what you mean by “4x6 months of an unconnected training contract vs 2 years of developing skills with lawyers who have trained people before.”

Is the “unconnected TC” going to be offered under the SQE?

Now, a training contract is 24 months and short of a firm firing someone (incredibly rare) by the end you qualify with them. A 2 year contract with the same firm, as it is now and will remain with virtually all training providers, has the training partners watching your training, the training principal watching closer and of course all the benefits of working with a company for 2 years. Also, the City knows the good training firms, it almost acts a guarantee of ability and quality if you train with a decent training firm, essentially you're a good and reliable egg.

People also are known to do complimentary seats in their TCs so by the time they qualify they are a pretty good standard in their chosen practice area. The SQE removes the training principal and training partner requirement, all you need is a solicitor to just sign off on your work- they don't even need a current practising certificate!

I know it sounds bleak, the SQE was meant to remove the LPC gamble but it just pushes the problem a few years down the line. There will be tons of NQs in the market without good training. Not to mention the low standards of it- no essays! Lawyers are writers, 90% of the job is drafting!

I think the one benefit is if you know what you want to do, you could spend your whole TC in that area, as opposed to having to go through 3 practice areas. Having said that though, most practices cover a few areas of law at the same time- corporate finance and banking within an energy transaction for example.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Thank you for replying. Can you please clarify what you mean by “4x6 months of an unconnected training contract vs 2 years of developing skills with lawyers who have trained people before.”

Is the “unconnected TC” going to be offered under the SQE?

If you gained your 12 months experience in a high street firm, before taking the SQE or getting a “training contract” with a MC firm, you could technically qualify a year earlier than someone in your intake who has no previous legal work experience. However, the high street firm experience is unlikely to bring any value to the MC firm, so they may want you to complete two years with them anyway. That’s what “unconnected” could mean.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Not to mention the low standards of it- no essays! Lawyers are writers, 90% of the job is drafting!

I thought drafting was covered in SQE2?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

How long will the probation period be? Around 3-6 months, do trainees at the moment have a probation period? Confused on that sense.

no trainees don’t have probation periods at the moment - the firm has to make a 2 year commitment.

Probation periods can be anything from a few weeks up to 12 months. Depends on the individual employer’s policy.

 

[Lr1]

I thought drafting was covered in SQE2?

Not sure but definitely incomparable to what you have to do now. GDL, if you haven't done a comprehensive law degree, 7-8 exams of three hours each and three essays in each exam. Having to memorise lots of cases, really knowing your way around legislation and quoting from statute during exams etc. The SQE really 'dumbs down' the process for qualifying, everyone knows it and it's a real shame.

 

[amb98]

not necessarily - there could be fewer people (if people are not passing the SQE), especially in the early years of the SQE.

There could be more people qualifying though, so NQ roles could be more difficult to obtain, but I would expect that to only be if you were jumping ship to another firm at NQ.

I’d thought that there would be a higher number qualifying because the aim of the SQE is to make the profession more accessible right, and if it is successful in doing so, numbers of NQs should increase.

This would then result in the so called ‘bottleneck’ problem currently affecting TC applicants to be pushed forward to NQ level. That’s my understanding of it.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Not sure but definitely incomparable to what you have to do now. GDL, if you haven't done a comprehensive law degree, 7-8 exams of three hours each and three essays in each exam. Having to memorise lots of cases, really knowing your way around legislation and quoting from statute during exams etc. The SQE really 'dumbs down' the process for qualifying, everyone knows it and it's a real shame.

As I understand it, with the viva format of SQE2, drafting will be assessed

I agree it has been simplified too much. The SRA don’t want to regulate anything and so have made it as simple as possible so their workload is practically 0.

It is why probation periods will be used at firms. I suspect there will also be more drafting assessments in the recruitment process.

It does protect firms though - with the current system there are instances even in the best firms of trainees getting through a recruitment process but being nowhere near the necessary quality to qualify. And yet the firm has to keep them on for two years and they then qualify because the firm’s hands are tied - once you have a TC you basically qualify even if you’re rubbish at your job (which isn’t right either!).

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

I’d thought that there would be a higher number qualifying because the aim of the SQE is to make the profession more accessible right, and if it is successful in doing so, numbers of NQs should increase.

This would then result in the so called ‘bottleneck’ problem currently affecting TC applicants to be pushed forward to NQ level. That’s my understanding of it.

It is to open up more work experience opportunities, but it doesn’t necessarily mean more people qualify. The SQE is based on the QLTS and that has pretty low pass rates (attached).

That means there could just be a lot of people in “trainee purgatory”.

 

[Lr1]

As I understand it, with the viva format of SQE2, drafting will be assessed

I agree it has been simplified too much. The SRA don’t want to regulate anything and so have made it as simple as possible so their workload is practically 0.

It is why probation periods will be used at firms. I suspect there will also be more drafting assessments in the recruitment process.

It does protect firms though - with the current system there are instances even in the best firms of trainees getting through a recruitment process but being nowhere near the necessary quality to qualify. And yet they qualify because the firm’s hands are tied - once you have a TC you basically qualify even if you’re rubbish at your job (which isn’t right either!).

Rubbish NQs are quickly found out though, either in drafting testing for NQ positions or just being rubbish in interviews- getting things wrong when they shouldn't.

You say it protects firms, think about the long term, a whole heap of NQs will join the profession who probably shouldn't have been able to. The quality of lawyers over time will inevitably drop and the divide between the really good firms and 'less good' will get greater.