General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[TCLA Community Assistant]

This is something I often see said, but haven't actually ever seen any evidence for. Does anyone have a link to any research that's been done into it? I appreciate it's a problem inherent in the silo'd nature of the UK HE system, and I suppose would need academics from a range of universities to blind mark the same essay, would be really keen to see if there's any work been done on this!

As someone with a 2.1 in Law from Oxbridge, it'd be in my interest to believe it's true, but I wonder the extent to which it's an extension of the 'mickey mouse subject/degree' narrative which often just serves to perpetuate the status & prestige of institutions attended and courses studied by those in positions of power and devalues the hard work done by students at all universities to achieve top grades. Universities which of course are disproportionately attended by marginalised groups within the UK.

Think it's particularly interesting given, as you say @Adam Gilchrist, it's something taken into account by firms in making their recruitment decisions!

It’s one of those awful myths perpetuated by people who are trying to protect their own reputation.

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/universities-biggest-shares-21s-and-firsts-revealed

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Absolutely over the moon to have just received a TC offer from Linklaters. I've been in love with the firm since my first year at uni and still can't quite believe this is happening!

To all those expecting to hear for direct TC apps, I believe Links is finalising their offers to vac schemers today/Monday, so you should hopefully hear back soon. Do reach out if you think I can be of any help!

Congratulations!

 

[Cer96]

It’s one of those awful myths perpetuated by people who are trying to protect their own reputation.

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/universities-biggest-shares-21s-and-firsts-revealed

Thought so - Thanks for the link, the table in there is brilliant!

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Thought so - Thanks for the link, the table in there is brilliant!

There’s a lot of things up for debate with this.

For instance, Science degrees are typically easier to get 1st in than arts degrees. So how do you separate them out? There also tends to be a north/south divide in terms of performance.

But the argument that lower ranked unis give out too many 1st/2.1s come down to people thinking that those with higher A-level grades are some how more deserving/worthy of getting good grades. This debate started with the issues of using A-levels as a marker of success, and I’d suggest this is no different.

The thing that stands out for me with that table is how those universities ranked highest are also those with the highest proportion of privately educated and/or international students. That can’t be a coincidence.

 

[Adam Gilchrist]

This is something I often see said, but haven't actually ever seen any evidence for. Does anyone have a link to any research that's been done into it? I appreciate it's a problem inherent in the silo'd nature of the UK HE system, and I suppose would need academics from a range of universities to blind mark the same essay, would be really keen to see if there's any work been done on this!

As someone with a 2.1 in Law from Oxbridge, it'd be in my interest to believe it's true, but I wonder the extent to which it's an extension of the 'mickey mouse subject/degree' narrative which often just serves to perpetuate the status & prestige of institutions attended and courses studied by those in positions of power and devalues the hard work done by students at all universities to achieve top grades. Universities which of course are disproportionately attended by marginalised groups within the UK.

Think it's particularly interesting given, as you say @Adam Gilchrist, it's something taken into account by firms in making their recruitment decisions!

Just to repeat, this was said to me by a partner at one firm - I have no idea what other firms do/what other partners feel. It also isn't my opinion.

As to statistics, this is from 2018, but: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/universities-biggest-shares-21s-and-firsts-revealed#

If you click the table and re-order it by percentage of first class degrees awarded, you'll see that Oxford and Cambridge are down in 11th & 14th place respectively. Surrey, UEA, University College Birmingham, Greenwich, West London & Anglia Ruskin all award a higher percentage of firsts than universities like Bristol, Durham, St Andrews etc. Even if you discount music/drama conservatoires because their grading/awarding is done rather differently, there's a trend showing.

I'm certain that there is an element of snobbery and mockery present, but equally there's a grain of truth too. Then again, are some degrees more difficult than others/more difficult to get in for? Scientists would likely make the standard charge that arts students have it easy, and perhaps that is true. As Jessica said, the percentage of private school students/wealthy internationals skews things too.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Just to repeat, this was said to me by a partner at one firm - I have no idea what other firms do/what other partners feel.

As to statistics, this is from 2018, but: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/universities-biggest-shares-21s-and-firsts-revealed#

If you click the table and re-order it by percentage of first class degrees awarded, you'll see that Oxford and Cambridge are down in 11th & 14th place respectively. Surrey, UEA, University College Birmingham, Greenwich, West London & Anglia Ruskin all award a higher percentage of firsts than universities like Bristol, Durham, St Andrews etc. Even if you discount music/drama conservatoires because their grading/awarding is done rather differently, there's a trend showing.

I'm certain that there is an element of snobbery and mockery present, but equally there's a grain of truth too

I don’t see Oxford or Cambridge as “dropping” - they are still in the top 10% of universities awarding firsts. Overall higher ranked universities award more firsts than those who are lower ranked. Just look at how many highly ranked universities it at the other end of the table.

I don’t see a grain of truth to it at all. It’s just a really crappy headline myth perpetuated by people with their own self interests to perpetuate it.

 

[Adam Gilchrist]

I don’t see Oxford or Cambridge as “dropping” - they are still in the top 10% of universities awarding firsts.

I didn't mean so much that they were dropping, but that in some forums (ie TSR & occasionally the cesspool that is LegalCheek comments) there seems to be this belief that as they are meant to be the two best universities in the UK (and yes, I know there's a whole debate about whether they actually are) that they should therefore be churning out the highest numbers of firsts as well. Again, not my opinion, but that line invariably crops up on TSR

 

[Daniel Boden]

Absolutely over the moon to have just received a TC offer from Linklaters. I've been in love with the firm since my first year at uni and still can't quite believe this is happening!

To all those expecting to hear for direct TC apps, I believe Links is finalising their offers to vac schemers today/Monday, so you should hopefully hear back soon. Do reach out if you think I can be of any help!

Huge congrats! What a brilliant way to end the week - hope you are able to celebrate this Bank Holiday weekend

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

I didn't mean so much that they were dropping, but that in some forums (ie TSR & occasionally the cesspool that is LegalCheek comments) there seems to be this belief that as they are meant to be the two best universities in the UK (and yes, I know there's a whole debate about whether they actually are) that they should therefore be churning out the highest numbers of firsts as well. Again, not my opinion, but that line invariably crops up on TSR

I think many fail to recognise that Oxford and Cambridge are a very different education system to any other university. It’s like private school education on super charge. I have no doubt it is intellectually harder to study there, but I don’t think it is actually overall harder to study there. I think if anything it’s probably a lot easier to study there given the high levels of support/close supervision you get. Many people at other universities will be lucky to meet with a tutor once in their entire 3-4 years, let alone weekly.

 

[Cer96]

I think many fail to recognise that Oxford and Cambridge are a very different education system to any other university. It’s like private school education on super charge. I have no doubt it is intellectually harder to study there, but I don’t think it is actually overall harder to study there. I think if anything it’s probably a lot easier to study there given the high levels of support/close supervision you get. Many people at other universities will be lucky to meet with a tutor once in their entire 3-4 years, let alone weekly.

I think the reality is probably, as you suggest, somewhere in the middle. Workload is definitely intense; a supervision essay every week compared to friends at other unis who maybe did one/two essay a term definitely requires a lot of effort and teaching in groups of 1-3 means there's nowhere to hid unlike seminars of ~10, but the other side of that coin is you get a ridiculously high volume of feedback and practice before you even get near the exam hall at the end of the year.

With Oxbridge I think it's always important to remember the experience of different students. Broadly, if you're the stereotypical, traditional private schooled student from a stably middle class background then it's a completely congruent experience for you and an environment in which you're going to find it easier to study. By contrast, if you're a 'non-traditional' student from a very different background (as I definitely was) who isn't coming into the setting imbued with all of the social and cultural capital bound up in the Oxbridge teaching system, it's much harder, particularly at first. Of course, this is reflected across all universities too, and is part of the reason I think drawing effective conclusions on institutional levels (like saying it's easy to get a 1st at XYZ university or on ABC course) can be so difficult. The lives and experiences of students at universities are so incredibly varied, that often those conclusions often result in reproducing the power and interest of those with the most privilege.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Another consideration, is that those at lower ranked universities are much more likely to be:

• Students commuting to university from some distance
• Working part-time
• Have caring responsibilities

I suspect those commitments will impact someone’s ability to get a first much more than anything else.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

I think the reality is probably, as you suggest, somewhere in the middle. Workload is definitely intense; a supervision essay every week compared to friends at other unis who maybe did one/two essay a term definitely requires a lot of effort and teaching in groups of 1-3 means there's nowhere to hid unlike seminars of ~10, but the other side of that coin is you get a ridiculously high volume of feedback and practice before you even get near the exam hall at the end of the year.

With Oxbridge I think it's always important to remember the experience of different students. Broadly, if you're the stereotypical, traditional private schooled student from a stably middle class background then it's a completely congruent experience for you and an environment in which you're going to find it easier to study. By contrast, if you're a 'non-traditional' student from a very different background (as I definitely was) who isn't coming into the setting imbued with all of the social and cultural capital bound up in the Oxbridge teaching system, it's much harder, particularly at first. Of course, this is reflected across all universities too, and is part of the reason I think drawing effective conclusions on institutional levels (like saying it's easy to get a 1st at XYZ university or on ABC course) can be so difficult. The lives and experiences of students at universities are so incredibly varied, that often those conclusions often result in reproducing the power and interest of those with the most privilege.

completely agree with you. This is actually something lower ranked universities also struggle with - their students are less prepared to transition to a new learning style, and there are many more of them than at somewhere like Oxford/Cambridge. You only have to look at drop out rates to see this.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Sorry for taking over this thread - you’ve got me on one of my geek out topics

 

[Bugsy Malone]

Absolutely over the moon to have just received a TC offer from Linklaters. I've been in love with the firm since my first year at uni and still can't quite believe this is happening!

To all those expecting to hear for direct TC apps, I believe Links is finalising their offers to vac schemers today/Monday, so you should hopefully hear back soon. Do reach out if you think I can be of any help!

Incredible news, well done!

 

[h2020]

Has anyone heard back from Latham & Watkins?

 

[LegalNim]

Just to repeat, this was said to me by a partner at one firm - I have no idea what other firms do/what other partners feel. It also isn't my opinion.

As to statistics, this is from 2018, but: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/universities-biggest-shares-21s-and-firsts-revealed#

If you click the table and re-order it by percentage of first class degrees awarded, you'll see that Oxford and Cambridge are down in 11th & 14th place respectively. Surrey, UEA, University College Birmingham, Greenwich, West London & Anglia Ruskin all award a higher percentage of firsts than universities like Bristol, Durham, St Andrews etc. Even if you discount music/drama conservatoires because their grading/awarding is done rather differently, there's a trend showing.

I'm certain that there is an element of snobbery and mockery present, but equally there's a grain of truth too. Then again, are some degrees more difficult than others/more difficult to get in for? Scientists would likely make the standard charge that arts students have it easy, and perhaps that is true. As Jessica said, the percentage of private school students/wealthy internationals skews things too.

Like Jessica said, more people are awarded firsts in STEM subjects. Surrey in particular is a STEM uni. Its Tonmeister course (as one example) is considered to be the best in the world. Take a look at this and argue that Surrey doesn't deserve those firsts: http://iosr.surrey.ac.uk/tonmeister/awards.php Oxbridge and RG universities simply don't have a comparable course.
People studying at the universities that you deem to be lesser than yours have probably studied different disciplines. Whilst there's probably some truth that someone studying History at Warwick is "better" than someone studying History at Manchester Met, the statistics aren't saying those students are getting the degree grade. You can't expect that no one studying agricultural management (for example) can get a first and the top universities for that aren't Oxbridge or RG, so which universities are the people who deserve a first in that discipline supposed to attend?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Like Jessica said, more people are awarded firsts in STEM subjects. Surrey in particular is a STEM uni. Its Tonmeister course (as one example) is considered to be the best in the world. Take a look at this and argue that Surrey doesn't deserve those firsts: http://iosr.surrey.ac.uk/tonmeister/awards.php Oxbridge and RG universities simply don't have a comparable course.
People studying at the universities that you deem to be lesser than yours have probably studied different disciplines. Whilst there's probably some truth that someone studying History at Warwick is "better" than someone studying History at Manchester Met, the statistics aren't saying those students are getting the degree grade. You can't expect that no one studying agricultural management (for example) can get a first and the top universities for that aren't Oxbridge or RG, so which universities are the people who deserve a first in that discipline supposed to attend?

The point about degree subject is an important one. Many lower ranked unis are providing much more specialised/technical/modern degrees.

If you want to do something like computer game design or art, you’ll most likely go to a lower ranked uni. The idea is that these are “mickey mouse” degrees but ultimately they are far more practical and relevant than a history degree.

I’ll get off my soapbox before I bore everyone to death

 

[IntrepidL]

Hi @Jessica Booker! I joined a free 8-week coding course in which there was a coding competition and project at the end of it. Would it be appropriate to list this in the work experience section?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Hi @Jessica Booker! I joined a free 8-week coding course in which there was a coding competition and project at the end of it. Would it be appropriate to list this in the work experience section?

It doesn’t sound like work experience to me, more a training course/e-learning, so should be in a different section

 

[Sager1]

Dentons rejection

Hang in there. Your Yes will come!