General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[TCLA Community Assistant]

For NRF, would you talk about open days/encounters with the firm in the work experience section? There are only 4 opportunities to write 250 words, then you have to write the rest of your work experience in 200 words

I suspect you would have better work experience example to pull upon than open days, and that potentially open days could be referenced elsewhere in an application.

 

[WannabeSolicitor24]

For NRF, would you talk about open days/encounters with the firm in the work experience section? There are only 4 opportunities to write 250 words, then you have to write the rest of your work experience in 200 words

I was told by NRF Grad Rec last year to use that 200 words box to talk about extra-curricular stuff; I would possibly mention it in the cover letter if you have other WE you want to talk about?

 

[PP27]

Thank you that's helpful. Also, for the NRF application, in the section where I fill out my grades, there is a drop box where you can only pick one number out of 100. My university grading system was different, where for each exam I would get 2 marks out of 100 which contributed towards my final result. For example, for one paper, my transcript says that I received "64, 70 / 100". How would I include this in my application? There is no additional space to write further modules and have tried to contact grad recruitment

 

[Jaysen]

Hi @Jessica Booker, I've been thinking about what you mentioned at the event today - that law firms spend a significant amount of money on training / hiring lawyers, and that they generally don't start making their money back until the lawyer is around 3 PQE. That's quite the investment and it totally makes sense that firms would want to hire only the brightest and most motivated candidates.

But I'm wondering, do you have any information / statistics on whether it all pays off, in the end? Do lawyers have a lower rate of leaving their law firm than professionals in other sectors have of leaving their employers?

I've heard before that 2-3 PQE is peak time for lawyers exiting firms, typically going either to competitors or in-house in a corporation, but I don't have any data on how many former trainees actually stay with the firm long-term, perhaps even making partner.

And kind of in the same vein as this, do you think it's truly the best / most long-term motivated candidates that are successful in securing TCs, or just the ones who have learnt to play the application / interview game the best? We hear constantly, on TCLA and other places, that the application process is a skill you can learn. But if it's something you can learn, how do we know an applicant's story is genuine, and not just "learnt" to be presented in a way most attractive to the interviewer?

Apologies if this seems like a bit of an odd take, but what you said just got me thinking about whether this whole complex recruiting process really produces the best candidates for firms.

I think the points you raise here are really interesting. Here's my take:

For some reason, when it comes to the job process, people sometimes have the perception that being successful at applications and interviews is an innate ability - you either have it or you don't. But we don't have that same attitudes with so many other fields, from exams to sports. You have to learn the skills.

Application and interview technique are skills you can learn in the sense that you can learn how to clearly communicate your motivations and 'sell' your experiences. That doesn't mean a candidate isn't being genuine; they just needed to learn how to draw out the best aspects of their experiences and consider why they might actually be a fantastic asset to a firm. I think that then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Many people underestimate how fast they'll improve once they're actually in practice.

Similarly, for a variety of reasons, many people - particularly if they don't come from a certain background - have never been taught that it's okay to be confident and think deeply about the achievements they have. Similarly, they've never really been taught how to answer questions about themselves, their motivations and their competencies, or how to stay composed when answering questions outside of their comfort zone. These are all skills that can be taught, but it doesn't mean the candidate doesn't have to do the legwork to begin with.

I've no doubt that some people do get through the system by simply learning what they need to know. Unless the candidate is exceptionally convincing at being fake, I think that's mostly down to the interviewer though. Good interviewers will steer away from the rehearsed stuff and push candidates outside their domain of knowledge. They seek to find out what a candidate's genuine reasons are. If a candidate still gets through anyway, they were probably actually just a good candidate.

 

[Jaysen]

That's very interesting, I didn't know 15 months was the average for a first job. But as you said, the TC itself is a guaranteed 24 months, so it'd be interesting to see how long candidates would stay at their first firm if they went straight to an NQ-type role.

What about all the specificity firms look for when hiring candidates - for instance, I might be truly interested in cross-border work, yet most firms will want me to zoom in on something a bit more specific when justifying my motivation for applying to them, such as their approach to international clients, or secondments, etc., and then link it back to me. But from my perspective, none of that might matter - I just want an internationally recognised firm, and that might be 90% of my motivation, and I'd be roughly equally happy at any firm that offers that. Be it W&C, Dentons, NRF, or whoever else, they all equally fit my criteria. So for each one, I'll find a great story about how their specific approach to internationality appeals to me, I'll link it to my experiences, but ultimately that's all it will be - a story. How has the firm gauged anything from that, other than my ability to write a story?

In some ways, yes, I think it is just your ability to write a story. If you genuinely don't care what firm it is and just want an international firm, that's fine. As with any job though, if you make statements that made it sound like you just wanted a job, and that you'd be equally happy at any rival company, that's going to give the recruiter doubts. It would imply that you either haven't thought about your motivations deeply enough or that you wouldn't hesitate to jump ship if another opportunity came up. The company would rather hire people who actually wanted to apply to their particular firm and could really justify this.

I don't think it's a bad thing that much of this process is about knowing how to tell a story. Learning how to present yourself convincingly is a huge part of being successful in all aspects of life.

 

[Deleted member 2707]

Hi guys! I'm preparing for a VI and I'm wondering what are the key competencies I should find examples for. I currently have

1. Teamwork
2. Leadership
3. Resilience
4. Attention to detail
5. Willingness to help others
6. Flexibility
7. Interpersonal skills

Is there other common ones I should focus on?

 

[Tintin06]

@Jessica Booker is having a ball photo on a LinkedIn profile a no no? Thanks in advance.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Hi guys! I'm preparing for a VI and I'm wondering what are the key competencies I should find examples for. I currently have

1. Teamwork
2. Leadership
3. Resilience
4. Attention to detail
5. Willingness to help others
6. Flexibility
7. Interpersonal skills

Is there other common ones I should focus on?

Which firm is it for?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

@Jessica Booker is having a ball photo on a LinkedIn profile a no no? Thanks in advance.

Depends on the ball photo - if you are passed out drunk in the corner, then definitely not (that might have just been my ball though )

If it is a cropped face and shoulder picture (rather than full body shot) of you at the start of the evening, then that should be fine. The only thing I would avoid is if you are a woman and have bare shoulders in the ball picture, it probably isn't one to use.

 

[M1999]

Someone told me on TSR that if you haven’t sent off summer applications before mid December you have a very slim chance. With respect to rolling, how true is this statement? It seems to me that currently most firms are recruiting for the winter VS, and I’m guessing will start reviewing the summer/spring when they have finished recruiting and organising which is in a couple of weeks?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Someone told me on TSR that if you haven’t sent off summer applications before mid December you have a very slim chance. With respect to rolling, how true is this statement? It seems to me that currently most firms are recruiting for the winter VS, and I’m guessing will start reviewing the summer/spring when they have finished recruiting and organising which is in a couple of weeks?

Oh TSR, the place where too many myths get perpetuated by people who don't know what they are talking about.

If the deadline is in mid December, then maybe. But plenty of firms are not even closing summer apps until the end of January or even later. Many firms will probably have received less than 40% of their applications by mid-December.

It is amazing how many supposed "slim chance" late applications end up getting jobs.

 

[bethbristol]

Someone told me on TSR that if you haven’t sent off summer applications before mid December you have a very slim chance. With respect to rolling, how true is this statement? It seems to me that currently most firms are recruiting for the winter VS, and I’m guessing will start reviewing the summer/spring when they have finished recruiting and organising which is in a couple of weeks?

I applied to 5 firms last year. One was 2 weeks before deadline, all 4 others were within a couple of days of the deadline. The first one I got rejected from, the rest I made it through to the next stage, and got 2 vacation scheme offers. I don't have excellent grades or lots of work experience either. I am not saying that this is the perfect plan, but what they are saying is absolutely not correct - if you need that extra time to get the motivation to write the apps, or refine them, then all is not lost

 

[Deleted member 2707]

Which firm is it for?

It's Baker McKenzie but I can't find a competency list on his website

 

[Tintin06]

Someone told me on TSR that if you haven’t sent off summer applications before mid December you have a very slim chance. With respect to rolling, how true is this statement? It seems to me that currently most firms are recruiting for the winter VS, and I’m guessing will start reviewing the summer/spring when they have finished recruiting and organising which is in a couple of weeks?

I applied to Vinson & Elkins the day of the deadline this year and still got the VI.

 

[bethbristol]

It's Baker McKenzie but I can't find a competency list on his website

Definitely prepare one about challenges firm love those.
I would add
- conflict resolution
- time management

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

It's Baker McKenzie but I can't find a competency list on his website

Looks like it is a strengths based interview so wouldn't be competency questions.

 

[Lawgirl123]

Looks like it is a strengths based interview so wouldn't be competency questions.

Can you explain what the difference is? Do you not need to use examples in a strength-based interview? Thanks!

 

[Andrew M]

Can you explain what the difference is? Do you not need to use examples in a strength-based interview? Thanks!

Strength based questions determine what your strengths and motivations are, and how you would respond in X circumstances (e.g. what would you do if given a task which you don't know how to complete/haven't got time to do). They are basically looking to see what kind of trainee you would be. You can't necessarily prepare for these kinds of questions in the way that you can with competency questions.

 

[Jooooopp7]

Does anyone know a good structure for when writing about a commercial story that interest you on an application. I feel like I tend to waffle too much and ends up being too descriptive. Would I need to link it back to the firm? or any of their competencies and how could I do this? Also one of the questions asks for the implications of the case but I'm not 100% sure of what this means? Any help would be super appreciated!

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Can you explain what the difference is? Do you not need to use examples in a strength-based interview? Thanks!

Strengths based interviews (if thats what they truly are) tend to be forward looking rather than backwards looking, often asking you to often see how you may respond to something in the future, rather than how you have in the past.