General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[Tim Buktu]

That isn’t the answer though. The answer is called return on investment.

Spending £2,000 + 2 x a day of people’s time going to Oxford is much more likely to result in a hire than spending that time and money at London Met.

But doesn't this contribute to perpetuating the lack of diversity that most firms have advertised their commitment to reducing?

 

[whisperingrock]

These events do happen and have been since at least 2005 when I started out. If you are suggesting that firms only do those large events and don’t go to individual universities, then this just isn’t practical.

How would a student with a very low income or who has caring commitments from Manchester be able to attend an event a large event in London that would cost the best part of a day of their time and several hundred pounds to travel down by train?

I said "event city" purposefully to capture that very situation. Firm's also tend to reimburse cost of travel. There are ways around this that firms can and already do for uni specific events. And lets just ignore the fact that a student with a very low income and caring commitments is probably more likely to be at a non-RG university.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

And that's the whole point. Yes, we all know the Oxford student is better and more desireable, regardless of what words you couch it in. So why all the hypocrisy? Why push it off on the non-RG students? Why preach diversity and equal opportunity when clearly that isn't the case?

I don’t appreciate the tone here. It isn’t hypocrisy.

An individual Oxford student is not better or desirable just because they went to Oxford.

But collectively you are more likely to find hires from Oxford, because of the population en masse and a variety of factors that contribute to that.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

But doesn't this contribute to perpetuating the lack of diversity that most firms have advertised their commitment to reducing?

no - because no firm is only doing one event at one university as their only marketing activity. They have a planned attraction, marketing and event strategy, of which different events/activity will have different objectives.

Even if it was, it’s presumptuous to assume that one lone event isn’t targeted at getting in diverse candidates into the firm just because it is at one university.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

I said "event city" purposefully to capture that very situation. Firm's also tend to reimburse cost of travel. There are ways around this that firms can and already do for uni specific events. And lets just ignore the fact that a student with a very low income and caring commitments is probably more likely to be at a non-RG university.

They reimburse travel expenses for interviews and open days but not large scale events.

 

[whisperingrock]

They reimburse travel expenses for interviews and open days but not large scale events.

Hence why you have them in more cities. You are ignoring part of my statement to attack another. All I'm hoping for is a little self reflection here. Sorry I'm not presenting a full pitch of new innovative recruiting events in a two sentence post on a forum.

 

[ab01]

Having had a good browse on LinkedIn, and speaking to candidates who have received TC offers at reputable firms, some have received 2:2s along the way and have received lower a-levels than me and because they went to a Russell Group university they have received TC offers. So do recruiters look at the individual grades or do they look overall at the university as well? Because I have received 9 firsts and 5 high 2.1s on my course, so surely I stand a better chance than a person from Oxbridge or a Russell Group student who achieved 2:2s and say graduated with 64% or below. I feel sometimes it’s not fair because of the university I attended, and it will always come back to the name of the university and not my actual individual grades which are quite strong.

@Jessica Booker

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

If there is one positive of Covid, it will be how it transforms graduate recruitment. Employers (not just law firms) are starting to realise how successful marketing campaigns can be delivering events online rather than relying on on-campus activity. It’s cheaper, it’s less time intensive, it’s better from a data and reporting perspective, it’s much more accessible etc. We were already seeing the decline in career fair attendance and student society sponsorship, but Covid has accelerated this.

Undoubtedly we will see less campus activity in the future. I can’t see organisations willing to go back to careers fairs for sometime in the same way/volume they did in 2019. That’s going to be great for a number of reasons but mainly where it allows firms to dedicate more time and money towards marketing activity that will reach the best candidates.

But firms are dependent on the set up at universities too. Coming out of milkround this season for an Investment Management company, the digital events that universities ran this year were vastly different. The platforms and technology they used and the ways in which they were promoted to students were vastly different. Would anyone be surprised to hear the best events in terms of functionality were Oxford and Cambridge? While many non-RG unis (and some RGs who are struggling financially) couldn’t afford the technology to run the events in the same successful way.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Hence why you have them in more cities. You are ignoring part of my statement to attack another. All I'm hoping for is a little self reflection here. Sorry I'm not presenting a full pitch of new innovative recruiting events in a two sentence post on a forum.

I’m not attacking anything. I am trying to clarify and justify my position on this.

What would you like me to address that I ignored?

These events do happen already. Manchester’s careers fairs are a prime example where they are open to people from outside of their university.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Having had a good browse on LinkedIn, and speaking to candidates who have received TC offers at reputable firms, some have received 2:2s along the way and have received lower a-levels than me and because they went to a Russell Group university they have received TC offers. So do recruiters look at the individual grades or do they look overall at the university as well? Because I have received 9 firsts and 5 high 2.1s on my course, so surely I stand a better chance than a person from Oxbridge or a Russell Group student who achieved 2:2s and say graduated with 64% or below. I feel sometimes it’s not fair because of the university I attended, and it will always come back to the name of the university and not my actual individual grades which are quite strong.

@Jessica Booker

It is not because they went to a RG university that they got their offer. It’s pretty insulting to anyone who has worked their backside off while studying at a RG university (and by that I don’t just mean academically) to say they secured their TC just because of the university they went to.

Decisions to hire someone are not made by academics alone. So the comparison here doesn’t really work in reality.

 

[Legal_rawn]

Having had a good browse on LinkedIn, and speaking to candidates who have received TC offers at reputable firms, some have received 2:2s along the way and have received lower a-levels than me and because they went to a Russell Group university they have received TC offers. So do recruiters look at the individual grades or do they look overall at the university as well? Because I have received 9 firsts and 5 high 2.1s on my course, so surely I stand a better chance than a person from Oxbridge or a Russell Group student who achieved 2:2s and say graduated with 64% or below. I feel sometimes it’s not fair because of the university I attended, and it will always come back to the name of the university and not my actual individual grades which are quite strong.

@Jessica Booker

For Cambridge the grade is given based on where you rank in the year so it’s a bit different.

 

[ab01]

It is not because they went to a RG university that they got their offer. It’s pretty insulting to anyone who has worked their backside off while studying at a RG university (and by that I don’t just mean academically) to say they secured their TC just because of the university they went to.

Decisions to hire someone are not made by academics alone. So the comparison here doesn’t really work in reality.

Thank you for that, but isn’t it insulting to a non-RG student who got better grades than them? As I thought law firms don’t like 2:2s and I worked my socks off to secure the many firsts I did throughout my course. So am I right in saying they look at individual grades than and not the university?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Thank you for that, but isn’t it insulting to a non-RG student who got better grades than them? As I thought law firms don’t like 2:2s and I worked my socks off to secure the many firsts I did throughout my course. So am I right in saying they look at individual grades than and not the university?

No - because as I said, a decision on an application or to offer someone a job is not made by academics alone.

 

[Tim Buktu]

no - because no firm is only doing one event at one university as their only marketing activity. They have a planned attraction, marketing and event strategy, of which different events will have different objectives.

Even if it was, it’s presumptuous to assume that one lone event isn’t targeted at getting in diverse candidates into the firm.

No, but most firms are doing uni-specific events, and as you explained above, their marketing and event strategy is ROI based, therefore, will focus on RG students.

Non-RG students have access to some events. These events are additional opportunities for RG students that benefit from access to both and enjoy the "confidence-boost" that firms want them (because of their invitation to uni-specific events).

And if one lone event is indeed targeted at getting in diverse candidate into the firm, wouldn't it make sense to target more diverse universities?
Or do minorities become targets only when they attend institutions that would provide a good ROI overall?

I think it's a shame that the disadvantages I face as a non-RG student are broadly accepted as the status quo* yet never acknowledged by grad rec teams. (TCLA is one of the rare platforms that tackled the topic)

*because there isn't a commercial incentive to remedy them

 

[Legal_rawn]

Thank you for that, but isn’t it insulting to a non-RG student who got better grades than them? As I thought law firms don’t like 2:2s and I worked my socks off to secure the many firsts I did throughout my course. So am I right in saying they look at individual grades than and not the university?

I could say the same about the people who have gone to non-RG unis with worse a levels than me that have TC offers when I don’t?

 

[JohanGRK]

For Cambridge the grade is given based on where you rank in the year so it’s a bit different.

This isn't true; they don't employ bell curve marking in the way it's used e.g. in the US. Class lists are something different. All unis have a list of where you place in your cohort, Cambridge is the only one that makes it public-ish.

I am enjoying the back and forth on this thread and am also learning quite a bit, which is sadly all too rare these days :/

 

[whisperingrock]

This isn't true; they don't employ bell curve marking in the way it's used e.g. in the US. Class lists are something different. All unis have a list of where you place in your cohort, Cambridge is the only one that makes it public-ish.

I am enjoying the back and forth on this thread and am also learning quite a bit, which is sadly all too rare these days :/

Lol in the US my first year grades were curved DOWN despite being mid-As by percentage. Gotta love elite unis.

 

[ab01]

I could say the same about the people who have gone to non-RG unis with worse a levels than me that have TC offers when I don’t?

Well then I agree with what @Jessica Booker mentioned that it doesn’t depend on the university name but the individual grading and other stuff like experience. I know many people who went to Cambridge and still are struggling to find a TC.

So from what I have gathered from this thread is - your university doesn’t define you

 

[Legal_rawn]

This isn't true; they don't employ bell curve marking in the way it's used e.g. in the US. Class lists are something different. All unis have a list of where you place in your cohort, Cambridge is the only one that makes it public-ish.

I am enjoying the back and forth on this thread and am also learning quite a bit, which is sadly all too rare these days :/

It is how it works in terms of moderation. The ranking is used to assign grade boundaries (more so than at other units) although this does depend on which college you go to. A 2.2 at Cambridge is a bit different to a 2.2 from somewhere else

 

[JohanGRK]

Lol in the US my first year grades were curved DOWN despite being mid-As by percentage. Gotta love elite unis.

Getting screwed over despite performing better than last year's cohort is one of the reasons why that system is crap. Thankfully, no 'elite' UK uni uses it.