TCLA Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion Thread 2021-22 (#1)

[lila122]

Hi, I keep receiving rejections post interview and I am really trying not to lose hope. Rejection post interview hits a lot harder than rejection post online application form. I'm waiting for my feedback, but I am thinking about my approach during interviews, and I would really appreciate some advice.

I have read not to be casual, but to be chatty and show personality. I have tried to show personality, but I am worried that I don't come across serious enough as my personality is naturally bubbly and smiley (not fake, but naturally), and I'm not sure whether to tone it down and talk with less emotion in my voice to be more business like?

Sorry I just feel clueless at this point. Probably overanalysing but curious what sort of tone people go for in their interviews

I also always feel nervous and I think its definitely obvious I'm slightly nervous, but I don't know HOW to not be?!! Do law firms prefer people who just have no nerves? Not sure how to tackle this if that is the case

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

I’m sorry to hear this!

Has anyone applied to a firm for the second consecutive year and got any further than in the previous year? Because I’m beginning to develop a theory

I know enough people who have done this.

The key is showing a development in your application in the period between your applications. If your application is near enough the same, the view is if you were unsuccessful last time, then there is less rationale to bring you through further than last time, as the outcome is most likely going to be the same if your application is the same.

 

[Cantab_95]

Are there people who keep going for several consecutive cycles and never make it? Wondering if I’m deluding myself by pressing on

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Are there people who keep going for several consecutive cycles and never make it? Wondering if I’m deluding myself by pressing on

I think many just try different types of firms and eventually get the right match. But yes, I have seen plenty of people not make it into law. Interestingly many of them seem to have highly successful careers in other industries/sectors. Law isn’t the be all and end all.

But there are plenty of people who persevere and do make it - sometimes after many cycles/attempts.

 

[WillF]

Hi everyone, does anyone know if HSF's summer vac scheme is rolling? Also, for our topic of choice, if we include specific facts or statistics, do we need to cite or mention the source in any way?

Hey - its non-rolling!

 

[LongSufferingLawGrad]

Thanks to everyone who has shared info on W&C! The firm seems to be getting through the backlog now, and I'm sorry to hear bad news for fellow applicants. Chin up and keep the faith!

Still have no news, but I guess the next batch of candidates will hear something tomorrow...

 

[Anya B]

W&C PFO - but invited to the careers dinner so at least they're giving me a free meal!

 

[AvniD]

Hi, I keep receiving rejections post interview and I am really trying not to lose hope. Rejection post interview hits a lot harder than rejection post online application form. I'm waiting for my feedback, but I am thinking about my approach during interviews, and I would really appreciate some advice.

I have read not to be casual, but to be chatty and show personality. I have tried to show personality, but I am worried that I don't come across serious enough as my personality is naturally bubbly and smiley (not fake, but naturally), and I'm not sure whether to tone it down and talk with less emotion in my voice to be more business like?

Sorry I just feel clueless at this point. Probably overanalysing but curious what sort of tone people go for in their interviews

I also always feel nervous and I think its definitely obvious I'm slightly nervous, but I don't know HOW to not be?!! Do law firms prefer people who just have no nerves? Not sure how to tackle this if that is the case

I am someone who finds it really hard to sit still with a straight face in most situations, and especially when I'm having a conversation with someone (the TCLA team will probably attest to this- I'm always laughing and joking around in our weekly meetings ) Probably because of my cultural background as well (I am Punjabi), being expressive about my emotions comes very naturally to me, and I definitely do not tone this down in life, and in interviews as well.

Your personality is a big part of who you are, and it's important that you let this shine through! I always say that while lawyers do serious work there is no obligation for us to always be 'serious' people- trust that you know how to amend your approach, depending on the situation you find yourself in.

The only tip I would like to give you is to evaluate whether you're speaking in an even tone. An issue that I had during practice interviews was that I'd speak too excitedly and not moderate my tone, which would confuse the interviewer about where I was laying an emphasis. While content and delivery are important, tone is the tool you use to convey context to the interviewer and bring your answer together, and it is often ignored and underestimated.

As for rejections- I completely understand what you mean. You put so much more of yourself out there when you take part in interviews so a rejection hits much harder. The only thing I can say is you're doing exceedingly well by posting here and evaluating how you can improve your applications. Securing interviews is no small feat- your achievements are impressive and worthy of recognition, whether they have a positive outcome or not. Learning from these disappointments and growing from them, as you are admirably trying to do, is the only way to move onwards and upwards.

We're all here for you if you need any help with your applications- you've got this

 

[h1]

Applied for Bird & Bird Summer Vac Scheme on Oct 28 and haven't heard anything since. Is that expected/usual? I know some people have been moved to WG and Vid Interview recently.

 

[DisciplineTC2526]

Is this CMS question - 'In your own words, explain one key strategy that CMS is implementing to become the leading relationship law firm' - new or was it on last year's application form?

 

[tt_xo]

Is this CMS question - 'In your own words, explain one key strategy that CMS is implementing to become the leading relationship law firm' - new or was it on last year's application form?

It is new

 

[layk]

Finally got my Simmons PFO post-VI for winter

Could I ask when you completed your VI?

 

[AvniD]

Are there people who keep going for several consecutive cycles and never make it? Wondering if I’m deluding myself by pressing on

I think many just try different types of firms and eventually get the right match. But yes, I have seen plenty of people not make it into law. Interestingly many of them seem to have highly successful careers in other industries/sectors. Law isn’t the be all and end all.

But there are plenty of people who persevere and do make it - sometimes after many cycles/attempts.

@Cantab_95 I think @Jessica Booker has provided some really useful insight in her post and I wholeheartedly agree with her.

I think there's a lot to be said about the impact that your perspective has on your applications. When I graduated from law school in 2018, I had absolutely no intention of becoming a lawyer and went on to pursue a career in journalism. When I decided to come back into law a short while later via the LPC MSc, I started making applications with unwavering confidence that since I had gone to law school, I had all the tools I needed to make strong training contract applications. It was only in hindsight that I could appreciate how wrong I was and that simply going to law school did not make me a strong applicant- it needed much more work, which I thankfully put in eventually.

One of the best things I did for myself while figuring out how much more work it would take to go from a string of rejections to a training contract was to evaluate 1) if I had the motivation and drive to pursue a career in commercial law i.e. should I consider other city careers and see if they're a better fit and 2) if commercial law was indeed the right path for me, then what I was doing wrong and how I could I improve my applications. Doing this exercise strengthened my perspective about pursuing a career in law, which in turn fueled me to improve my applications by working on my commercial awareness, rigorously checking each application for the quality of my answers and sincerely practising for each stage of the process till I got my training contract.

One could have said that I was deluding myself by pressing on- but I saw it as me hustling to get my foot in the door as a first-generation non-UK applicant trying to make it in commercial law, and I guess this was the only perspective that mattered at the end of the day.

 

[layk]

finally got my PFO from W&C!

Could I ask when you applied?

 

[OB]

Could I ask when you completed your VI?

12th October I believe

 

[John Travoni]

Had anyone heard back from Bird & Bird post VI?

 

[layk]

Have Simmons finished holding their ACs?

 

[AvniD]

Not sure if this is the right thread but I was wondering if anyone has a structure they follow for open day applications? Should it similarly be structured like a cover letter? I never really know how to approach it compared to VS apps

For open day applications, it's important to demonstrate your curiosity by elaborating on-

1. what you're hoping to learn about a career in commercial law at the firm that you're applying to and
2. how you know you may learn this through an open day

For 1, talk about what sparked your interest in commercial law and the firm (something you read or watched, an event/webinar that you attended etc.) and what you're hoping to learn from the open day. This could be anything from how the firm is structured, its business strategy, its sector focuses and practice areas to how their training contract is structured and what their trainees do on a typical day at the firm.

For 2, bring in your research to show that you've taken the initiative to learn how you can enter into a career in law and make strong applications using the knowledge you gain at open days. For example, you can mention conversations you have had with the careers service at your uni or articles you read online and how they influenced you to apply for open days.

Lastly, word count permitting, do elaborate on your background and personal attributes and how you know that they make you a good fit for a career in commercial law. So if you say you're creative, ensure you mention how you've demonstrated this and how it will help you as a commercial lawyer (maybe in innovating, bringing in new initiatives?)

I hope this was helpful! Tagging my fellow community managers for their thoughts as well! @George Maxwell @James Carrabino

 

[James Carrabino]

Hi, I keep receiving rejections post interview and I am really trying not to lose hope. Rejection post interview hits a lot harder than rejection post online application form. I'm waiting for my feedback, but I am thinking about my approach during interviews, and I would really appreciate some advice.

I have read not to be casual, but to be chatty and show personality. I have tried to show personality, but I am worried that I don't come across serious enough as my personality is naturally bubbly and smiley (not fake, but naturally), and I'm not sure whether to tone it down and talk with less emotion in my voice to be more business like?

Sorry I just feel clueless at this point. Probably overanalysing but curious what sort of tone people go for in their interviews

I also always feel nervous and I think its definitely obvious I'm slightly nervous, but I don't know HOW to not be?!! Do law firms prefer people who just have no nerves? Not sure how to tackle this if that is the case

It saddens me to see people get down about rejections and I only wish you could jump to that point in the future when you're receiving your offer call and can look back and understand how it all worked itself out in the end... I am confident that it will happen for you, as it did for me and the other applicants I know!

Long story short, you most likely do not need to change anything and the firm that rejected you now is just not the right fit for you. I remember coming across some fellow candidates at ACs and on vac schemes who were the most charming, poised and knowledgeable law candidates you could imagine who came out without an offer - whilst there would be candidates getting offers that did not seem to be so strong. Of course this is all very anecdotal and I am sure that every candidate who ends up with a TC has a huge amount to offer, but I do believe that coming across as a 'textbook candidate' in an interview (ie calm, perfectly prepared etc) is simply not that important to firms.

Consequently, I would not worry AT ALL about trying to change your demeanour or the way you come across in interviews - I am sure you are absolutely lovely and that any rejections for these reasons would be solely an issue of not being a good fit with the firm in question. The way to mitigate the disappointment that such rejections cause is simply by submitting as many applications as you can - a post-AC rejection hurts much less when you have a lot more applications in the pipeline (as I know from experience).

To address the specific issue you brought up, however, my first piece of advice would be to get feedback from firms where you are able to do so! When firms provide feedback, I think they will likely point to something tangible that you can work on. I have never heard of feedback that consisted of 'You were too nervous' or 'You were too happy/bubbly' or the like. That said, there may be some comments such as 'You did not seem enthusiastic enough about the firm' or 'You did not convince us of your motivation to pursue a career in commercial law' which may seem to be a critique of your demeanour but are actually much more insightful. To this end, the two areas which I think can be improved are commercial awareness and firm-specific research. If it comes across that a candidate simply does not know enough about the career or the firm that they want to enter then that could be a problem. Make sure you find work that the firm does which really appeals to you and your background and spend as long as you can in your spare time reading about commercial developments in current affairs and thinking about how they may affect the legal industry.

With these approaches, I am sure that you will start finding well-earned success! Do let me know whether you have any more queries about this as I really think it is important that you don't get too down about being in a situation all of us future trainees have been in

 

[breadpitt]

Does A&O reject you through a phone call or email post-AC?