General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[ml385]

Just received a first round interview invite for a direct TC with Withers! Does anyone have any advice for the interview? Thanks!

Hi Tamara, that's great news! I have also secured a first round interview but haven't had a date/time confirmed yet. Did you find any useful links for tips if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Daniel Boden]

they have never considered how modules were assessed, so I don’t think this is important.

What is important is if candidates are having to put in up to 50% of the effort (eg 60 credits vs 120 credits) that other candidates are putting in.

Firms won’t have the time or effort to consider policies/weighting etc, especially where many of them are optional. The only thing they can consider is how many credits an individual sat in one year.

For me, I’d rather see a candidate get a relatively stable 60 across 6 modules, rather than 70 across 3. I suspect many recruiters will feel the same.

Just thought I'd share what my current situation is, being a final year non-law student at the University of Nottingham.

This year I am doing 6 full year modules including a dissertation. What my course, and the Faculty of Arts at Nottingham, has decided to do is that any module that had completed 40% of the module's assessments prior to the 15th March then those grades would become the grades for the whole module, i.e. 40% would now be upscaled to 100% and you would not sit any further assessments.

Obviously, that is great if you have done well in that first 40% which, thankfully, I had but for those who hadn't and were relying on later assessments i.e. exams to bring them up, then they are in a bit of a tough situation. Equally, if you had yet to do any assessment for a module, which is the case for me in three of mine, then these assessments/essays (because they were originally supposed to be worth 40% of the module) are now worth 100% of the module, just like my dissertation. Thankfully, lecturers and tutors are now offering to read drafts of these essays due to the added importance they now have which has given a lot of people peace of mind.

I know that Nottingham law school is moving all its exams online and to open book whereby finalists have 7 working days to complete their answers and upload them to the online learning platform Turnitin which seems to be the fairest way I think at this point and to ensure that the results have a fair degree of integrity and that students still need to put in a good deal of effort.

Nottingham also has the no detriment policy, from which you can calculate your 'safety-net' mark which takes into account your second year marks already achieved. The less assessed work you had completed in your final year up to mid-March, the more your safety-net mark would be based on your second year result, if that makes sense?

I think Nottingham has done a pretty reasonable job given the circumstances, and am happy from a selfish perspective that at least for me it's worked in my favour as I have a guaranteed mid-to-high 2.1 with the possibility of getting a first if my remaining essays and dissertation go well. It's just a huge shame we, as finalists, won't get to celebrate the fruits of our last three/four years of hard work

 

[Flk10]

I think the idea behind it is that everyone is in one way or another being affected by what is happening, there would be an overload of students insisting they were not "fit to sit" their exams (even if they were exaggerating). There was also a lot of pressure from students for universities to adopt a transparent policy that addressed their concerns especially after one university implemented the no detriment policy - it led to many universities to quickly follow suit.

I do agree the policy in place encourages laziness and it means that those who have actually performed well could see their mark undermined. I think regardless of the policy it should have been made the same across universities as it seems those who have a less lenient policy will be disadvantaged.

I think as long as a policy is applied equally to all students at a particular university, as it has been, no one’s grade is being inflated or undermined, and it is not encouraging laziness.

The idea behind a no detriment policy is that your degree mark should not fall below the average you have achieved so far- this will be the result of possibly six or seven different modules and countless assessments that you have already completed. It is not as if students are being awarded grades plucked from thin air that they do not deserve.

I think it is simply a recognition that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to perform at the same level in a global pandemic as you would in normal circumstances. Clearly, the stress caused by the wider environment is one factor, but there is also a completely new form of teaching and assessment, limited access to books and resources and quite possibly for many, lack of a suitable area to work. It would be totally unfair for students to be penalised for not being able to achieve their best in the current situation.

A uniform policy across all universities would be very difficult to implement unfortunately, as each one has different methods of assessment and classification.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

I think as long as a policy is applied equally to all students at a particular university, as it has been, no one’s grade is being inflated or undermined, and it is not encouraging laziness.

That's the issue though - some of these policies are optional, so even within a cohort you are not assessing like for like.

I suspect firms will become a lot more open minded to grades (and work experience) during this time. They will have to as we are about to experience the worst grade inflation possible this year!

I also think it is a good opportunity to stand out from the crowd though. Being able to show you kept to your commitments of 120 credits and get good grades despite the pandemic will show adaptability, resilience and a commitment.

One things for certain, it’s not going to be fun reading long winded explanations about individual grading systems, on pretty much every application for the next 3/4 years

 

[Dala]

Big request to everyone. If you are still studying at university, please could you PM me if your university is allowing you to not formally be assessed on all of your modules this year. I have been notified of at least one law faculty doing this (allowing them submit assessments for 3 out of their 6 modules), and I am keen to understand how common an approach it is. I am speaking to graduate recruiters about this to understand their concerns about this too.

Hi there, sounds like a rather strange approach. For my university (Edinburgh Uni) we still have to sit all exams and submit all coursework. The only difference is that exams are take-home open book style with 48h to complete to account for all the people that have flown home internationally. Everyone has to sit all their exams. Our non-detriment policy applies so that if 25% or more of the module has already been marked, if your exam mark decreases your average it will not count. This is to account for the fact that many students are in places without access to resources or textbooks, so it is normal performance will not be as high. If 0% of the module has been assessed, then if the new mark decreases your average, it won’t count. However I don’t see this having much of an issue as if a student has consistently obtained a 65 throughout the year on course work & other modules, it is more likely than not that for coursework specifically the student will achieve a mark similar to their usual standard.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

This shows how murky everything is.

Although part of me thinks it might be a good thing that academics are relied on less (even though there is evidence they predict performance in the LPC), this just means recruiters have to rely on more subjective information in an application form which could have more issues.

Also think academic references are going to be relied on more now than ever.

 

[tractor12]

I think the idea behind it is that everyone is in one way or another being affected by what is happening, there would be an overload of students insisting they were not "fit to sit" their exams (even if they were exaggerating). There was also a lot of pressure from students for universities to adopt a transparent policy that addressed their concerns especially after one university implemented the no detriment policy - it led many universities to quickly follow suit.

I do agree the policy in place encourages laziness and it means that those who have actually performed well could see their mark undermined. I think regardless of the policy it should have been made university wide as it seems those who have a less lenient policy will be disadvantaged.

I think as long as a policy is applied equally to all students at a particular university, as it has been, no one’s grade is being inflated or undermined, and it is not encouraging laziness.

The idea behind a no detriment policy is that your degree mark should not fall below the average you have achieved so far- this will be the result of possibly six or seven different modules and countless assessments that you have already completed. It is not as if students are being awarded grades plucked from thin air that they do not deserve.

I think it is simply a recognition that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to perform at the same level in a global pandemic as you would in normal circumstances. Clearly, the stress caused by the wider environment is one factor, but there is also a completely new form of teaching and assessment, limited access to books and resources and quite possibly for many, lack of a suitable area to work. It would be totally unfair for students to be penalised for not being able to achieve their best in the current situation.

A uniform policy across all universities would be very difficult to implement unfortunately, as each one has different methods of assessment and classification.

Unfortunately, I think for those who are guaranteed a high grade it definitely encourages some of them to not work as hard as they usually would. I can already see that happening to several people I know.

I completely agree that everyone is being affected and that it is necessary to have something in place to protect student’s awards. Whilst grades are not plucked out of thin air, it still means that someone can do extremely well whilst still having more than 80 credits (in some cases) incompleted. Those who actually achieved such a grade with those 80 credits included will not be as recognized. It is such a difficult situation so I agree something had to be done but there are definitely drawbacks to the policies in place.

 

[AH9891]

This shows how murky everything is.

Although part of me thinks it might be a good thing that academics are relied on less (even though there is evidence they predict performance in the LPC), this just means recruiters have to rely on more subjective information in an application form which could have more issues.

Also think academic references are going to be relied on more now than ever.

do you think this is going to disadvantage people from universities that still require you to sit all exams and within the normal timeframe rather than being given days to complete it? Even compared to other Unis that require all exams to be completed but give you a lot more time, my uni seems to be very strict in their approach...

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

do you think this is going to disadvantage people from universities that still require you to sit all exams and within the normal timeframe rather than being given days to complete it? Even compared to other Unis that require all exams to be completed but give you a lot more time, my uni seems to be very strict in their approach...

no - I think this advantages then as they can say they have done their assessments and not had the ability to take the easier option

 

[Andre]

Anyone heard from Dentons post first interview for TC?

 

[JD]

Does anyone on here have an open day from Orrick and waiting to hear back from them on what they plan to do?

 

[TTD20]

Hi Tamara, that's great news! I have also secured a first round interview but haven't had a date/time confirmed yet. Did you find any useful links for tips if you don't mind me asking?

Sent you a private message!

 

[Miki3999]

Anyone heard from Dentons post first interview for TC?

Nope, I think they might have furloughed their HR departments

 

[JW]

Hi there, sounds like a rather strange approach. For my university (Edinburgh Uni) we still have to sit all exams and submit all coursework. The only difference is that exams are take-home open book style with 48h to complete to account for all the people that have flown home internationally. Everyone has to sit all their exams. Our non-detriment policy applies so that if 25% or more of the module has already been marked, if your exam mark decreases your average it will not count. This is to account for the fact that many students are in places without access to resources or textbooks, so it is normal performance will not be as high. If 0% of the module has been assessed, then if the new mark decreases your average, it won’t count. However I don’t see this having much of an issue as if a student has consistently obtained a 65 throughout the year on course work & other modules, it is more likely than not that for coursework specifically the student will achieve a mark similar to their usual standard.

I think that this also demonstrates the variation across universities! At Glasgow University we have 24 hours in comparison to 48, and I know Strathclyde University has 3 days.

 

[Heaven]

Does anyone know the current key commercial issues that training contract applicants need to be confident in for final interviews/assessment centres/case studies at City Law Firms like Bakers? Thanks.

 

[W]

Does anyone know the current key commercial issues that training contract applicants need to be confident in for final interviews/assessment centres/case studies at City Law Firms like Bakers? Thanks.

I would think it varies from firm to firm?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

I am not really concerned about the timeframes people have to complete exams... all things considered that is a minor issue really.

What I am concerned about is where students are not being assessed on modules at all - there is something that is particularly worrying about this. This wouldn't happen in the world of work and isn't happening with the professional qualifications.

I understand no detriment policies are there for a reason - and generally I am open to them, depending on how generous they are. To me a no detriment policy should be sufficient. I can’t understand how unis are justifying no detriment policies, plus allowing fewer credits to be taken and any weighting to be on only a small number of modules.

 

[NickMcK]

Does anyone know the current key commercial issues that training contract applicants need to be confident in for final interviews/assessment centres/case studies at City Law Firms like Bakers? Thanks.

I would recommend doing some research on the websites of firms you are applying to. Have a look at their sections labelled News, Insights, Updates etc. Dig deeper than the Covid-19 information that will be splashed across the front at the moment. Follow firms on LinkedIn and Twitter and they will often post when they release a new report or update on a topic relevant to them. Also follow their competitors/similar firms to get a different perspective on the same issue.

Large firms like Bakers also publish a lot of longer reports discussing commercial issues relevant to their clients. Invest the time to read these and connect them to your wider research of commercial topics from sources such as newspapers, podcasts etc.

TCLA also has a very good commercial awareness newsletter and forum so have a look around here!

 

[thecorporatelawyer]

Ahh wow thanks you’re absolutely right! I guess I’ve just been very nervous!

Hello @Jessica Booker I just realised I forgot to ask this, but you said not all case studies are M&A. But besides general business, and M&A case studies what other kinds could there be? Thanks!

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Hello @Jessica Booker I just realised I forgot to ask this, but you said not all case studies are M&A. But besides general business, and M&A case studies what other kinds could there be? Thanks!

M&A is just a story line to a case study. A case study story line could be anything commercial, that either relates to a firm’s business (eg Finance Employment, Tax, IP, Real Estate, Competition etc) or a clients business (eg specific industry information, changes to law/policy that impact clients).