Law firms & Diversity

[Oroma]

That's great to hear you had a positive experience. Out of interest, what did they say/do that made you feel so comfortable?

I honestly can’t explain. I’m usually chatty and everyone got my banters, we had an ice breaker task to bring something that signifies strength and i reached for a novel about the civil war in nigeria. When I spoke about this, everyone seemed interested and inspired. Everyone was generally warm and just interested in hearing what I had to say. Also, seeing the typical black man as a grad rec just made me feel more homely!

 

[Adanna]

Yeah I agree with this, and I think this can only
come from representation of these minority groups, because frankly for the majority of people, if it does not affect you, you often will not work hard to change it. So I think the important question is what is causing the lack of representation, what is the root? I’m not a sociologist but anecdotally, something I have noticed (and often discuss with my law friends) is that firms have no problem financially or socially with hosting D&I events, many do now. But what black applicants honestly need is not another panel discussion on how much your firm cares about diversity, we NEED practical advice on what you as law firm are looking for in applications and interviews, events on building commercial awareness, do’s and dont’s in your apps, what you are looking for in vac scheme students when deciding to offer TC’s.

Don’t think the intersectionality of black people, socio-economic class, and the university you attended can be ignored. A lot of what I mentioned above is ingrained in private schools, the big intl law firms focus primarily on oxbridge and Russell groups, allowing them more access to firms and their culture very early on in your degree and career journey and the majority of these students are white middle class students. I don’t want to waffle but I usually see it as a web of different things that cannot be fixed by events and a commitment to diversity. A gap of knowledge needs to be closed if we want real change. Again want to mention great orgs trying to do this, partnering with law firms to allow more state school, non Russel group (who are often black and BAME) students this type of insight that is readily available in other institutions: WCAN, BMEN, Black Men in Law, Aspiring Solicitors. The more this gap is closed I honestly think the more representation will change.

I can talk for days on this but yeah it’s definitely multi factorial. Also culture plays a big part, imposter syndrome plays a huge part. My experiences of vac schemes I have felt so out of place and I think that definitely had a consequence in me not getting a TC because I didn’t feel confident in myself or my abilities, but I saw those who were private schooled and attended more of the prestigious unis were so confident to the point I sometimes saw it as arrogance, they don’t need anyone to tell them they are doing a great job or deserve to be here because they know that already and have had that ingrained for a long time, and I think that confidence speaks loudly to grad rec. I hope we can all feel that confident too during our application and vac scheme season but it takes time!

 

[Jessica Booker]

I honestly can’t explain. I’m usually chatty and everyone got my banters, we had an ice breaker task to bring something that signifies strength and i reached for a novel about the civil war in nigeria. When I spoke about this, everyone seemed interested and inspired. Everyone was generally warm and just interested in hearing what I had to say. Also, seeing the typical black man as a grad rec just made me feel more homely!

In your opinion what could GR do if they aren't visually diverse? I think I have been fortunate to work in small yet diverse teams, but the reality from the outside and on a superficial level, people would have assumed we weren't.

 

[I.Like.UFOs.Not.PFOs]

One thing that I value is how firms actually perceive diversity and inclusion. I think someone mentioned before that law firms are ultimately businesses and they are not promoting diversity and inclusion purely out of the goodness of their hearts.

However, I always find that firms which are able to recognise the benefits of diversity, are much more appealing than those who promote diversity only because they think it is the right thing to do (as in they are only doing it because of social pressure, and their efforts feel performative).

This contrasts firms that for example, recognise that having a diverse group of employees is extremely valuable in facilitating a wide range of perspectives and to promote innovation.

Whilst intentions are important and it is significant for firms to understand that being more inclusive is the right thing to do, I don’t want to feel like I’m only being hired because they need a token representative of a minority group (as Jessica mentioned). I want to be recognised for the value and ideas that I can bring to the table.

So I guess for me, it is important that firms not only understand the value of diversity on a social level, but for them to actually want to hire diverse people because they recognise that they can bring different ideas/experiences/thoughts to the firm.

Not really sure where I’m going with this now but just wanted to express something that I’ve been feeling- I hope this makes sense 😂

 

[Oroma]

In your opinion what could GR do if they aren't visually diverse? I think I have been fortunate to work in small yet diverse teams, but the reality from the outside and on a superficial level, people would have assumed we weren't.

To be honest,I was shocked to meet the black GR because before then I only knew three other people in the team and they are white but we got along so well and I don’t even know why but maybe it has to do with my personality too. Even with my associate interview, she did an international secondment in Singapore during her own training contract and so after the typical questions, most of the interview was us talking about the Singaporean culture and how amazing it was for her. At the end she asked me my experience as an international student here and what it’s like. They just really want to know you regardless of the difference in experiences. It’s just about being personable. I don’t think there’s a specific ingredient to this thing.

 

[Andrew M]

One thing that I value is how firms actually perceive diversity and inclusion. I think someone mentioned before that law firms are ultimately businesses and they are not promoting diversity and inclusion purely out of the goodness of their hearts.

However, I always find that firms which are able to recognise the benefits of diversity, are much more appealing than those who promote diversity only because they think it is the right thing to do (as in they are only doing it because of social pressure, and their efforts feel performative).

This contrasts firms that for example, recognise that having a diverse group of employees is extremely valuable in facilitating a wide range of perspectives and to promote innovation.

Whilst intentions are important and it is significant for firms to understand that being more inclusive is the right thing to do, I don’t want to feel like I’m only being hired because they need a token representative of a minority group (as Jessica mentioned). I want to be recognised for the value and ideas that I can bring to the table.

So I guess for me, it is important that firms not only understand the value of diversity on a social level, but for them to actually want to hire diverse people because they recognise that they can bring different ideas/experiences/thoughts to the firm.

Not really sure where I’m going with this now but just wanted to express something that I’ve been feeling- I hope this makes sense 😂

This is basically the answer I've given in interviews when I'm asked why diversity matters to me, so it makes perfect sense to me!

 

[2020Applicant]

Most firms I know, have worked in, or worked with have been actively working with one or more of those organisations for many years. There is nothing new to me to working with (and actually paying an absurd amount of money) to work with those organisations. For some firms, the costs of working with such organisations will be out of reach though. You also may not see some of the work that firms are doing with those organisations, as they are either very specific/targeted to groups of people that you might not fall into.

I agree firms should be doing more on points 2 and 3. Some are doing this though, especially with historically under-represented groups.

The difficulty is often choosing which group to focus on. It isn't always down to cost, time can be the biggest obstacle to doing things like you have suggested for point 4. One firm might want to do more with black applicants, and LGBTQ+, and disability, and social-mobility and gender (although with law, it is often targeting men within another protected characteristic). But they haven't got the time resource to do everything, so they choose the one that is the biggest problem to them or the one where they think they can have the most impact, which may mean the specific group you are hoping they will engage is not actively targeted.

Yes, I understand that there may be time and financial resource limitations which affect which groups firms focus on. However, I think if a firm highlights that diversity is important to them, I would want to see some evidence of the efforts that they are making for all underrepresented groups (even those that I am not specifically part of). As to me, that demonstrates a firm that is truly dedicated to creating an inclusive workplace.

If we're speaking about a firm that hasn't previously made many efforts to increase diversity, I don't expect the full works straight away but I would at least like to see seeds planted that they intend to grow over time. So maybe a firm doesn't have enough time to change everything in a year but I think if a firm is truly committed to diversity, they should be able to strategise a road map or plan for the next 5 years or 10 years.

Regarding my point about demonstrating efforts to increase diversity for all underrepresented groups, I am aware that some firms can't do this or will choose not to do this. As an applicant, all I can do is make a personal decision on whether the efforts they are making align with me.

 

[I.Like.UFOs.Not.PFOs]

This is basically the answer I've given in interviews when I'm asked why diversity matters to me, so it makes perfect sense to me!

Ah that’s an interesting interview question! I would probably start going into a long speech if I was asked this 😂

 

[Daniel Boden]

One thing that I value is how firms actually perceive diversity and inclusion. I think someone mentioned before that law firms are ultimately businesses and they are not promoting diversity and inclusion purely out of the goodness of their hearts.

However, I always find that firms which are able to recognise the benefits of diversity, are much more appealing than those who promote diversity only because they think it is the right thing to do (as in they are only doing it because of social pressure, and their efforts feel performative).

This contrasts firms that for example, recognise that having a diverse group of employees is extremely valuable in facilitating a wide range of perspectives and to promote innovation.

Whilst intentions are important and it is significant for firms to understand that being more inclusive is the right thing to do, I don’t want to feel like I’m only being hired because they need a token representative of a minority group (as Jessica mentioned). I want to be recognised for the value and ideas that I can bring to the table.

So I guess for me, it is important that firms not only understand the value of diversity on a social level, but for them to actually want to hire diverse people because they recognise that they can bring different ideas/experiences/thoughts to the firm.

Not really sure where I’m going with this now but just wanted to express something that I’ve been feeling- I hope this makes sense 😂

I think you're spot on and the Harvard Business Review came out with a really interesting article that definitively shows that diversity proves financial performance (confirming what many of us already thought) so maybe on the back of this firms will see the evidence and do more to implement such measures because of the clear financial benefit it will bring them

The article is here for those who are interested:

Finally, Evidence That Diversity Improves Financial Performance

Findings from tens of thousands of VC investments.

hbr.org

 

[Andrew M]

Ah that’s an interesting interview question! I would probably start going into a long speech if I was asked this 😂

I feel like I give a long speech to every interview question 😅

I've had it crop up in some form in most of my interviews this year. Mills & Reeve asked me why diversity was important to me, and then asked me (something along the lines of) how I would promote diversity as a trainee.

 

[Jessica Booker]

To be honest,I was shocked to meet the black GR because before then I only knew three other people in the team and they are white but we got along so well and I don’t even know why but maybe it has to do with my personality too. Even with my associate interview, she did an international secondment in Singapore during her own training contract and so after the typical questions, most of the interview was us talking about the Singaporean culture and how amazing it was for her. At the end she asked me my experience as an international student here and what it’s like. They just really want to know you regardless of the difference in experiences. It’s just about being personable. I don’t think there’s a specific ingredient to this thing.

The vast majority of people I have worked with would have had this approach anyway. I’d hope many would say that was how I approached Grad Rec too.

I guess I am just trying to work out what firms can do on a superficial level. A lot of this discussion so far is about what people see on a superficial level rather than experience.

 

[Daniel Boden]

Yeah I agree with this, and I think this can only
come from representation of these minority groups, because frankly for the majority of people, if it does not affect you, you often will not work hard to change it. So I think the important question is what is causing the lack of representation, what is the root? I’m not a sociologist but anecdotally, something I have noticed (and often discuss with my law friends) is that firms have no problem financially or socially with hosting D&I events, many do now. But what black applicants honestly need is not another panel discussion on how much your firm cares about diversity, we NEED practical advice on what you as law firm are looking for in applications and interviews, events on building commercial awareness, do’s and dont’s in your apps, what you are looking for in vac scheme students when deciding to offer TC’s.

Don’t think the intersectionality of black people, socio-economic class, and the university you attended can be ignored. A lot of what I mentioned above is ingrained in private schools, the big intl law firms focus primarily on oxbridge and Russell groups, allowing them more access to firms and their culture very early on in your degree and career journey and the majority of these students are white middle class students. I don’t want to waffle but I usually see it as a web of different things that cannot be fixed by events and a commitment to diversity. A gap of knowledge needs to be closed if we want real change. Again want to mention great orgs trying to do this, partnering with law firms to allow more state school, non Russel group (who are often black and BAME) students this type of insight that is readily available in other institutions: WCAN, BMEN, Black Men in Law, Aspiring Solicitors. The more this gap is closed I honestly think the more representation will change.

I totally agree with this and think that these subtle nuances can arguably be more important in some scenarios. It's all well and good if you have a diverse group on the outside (in terms of skin colour etc.) but if say all of your diverse candidates went to elite private schools and then elite universities across the world, how diverse is your firm really?

Bringing people up from different backgrounds/schools/universities etc is, to me, just as important because that diversity of thought is going to help a law firm much more than just having members of the firm who are POC but who grew up in similar backgrounds.

 

[I.Like.UFOs.Not.PFOs]

I think you're spot on and the Harvard Business Review came out with a really interesting article that definitively shows that diversity proves financial performance (confirming what many of us already thought) so maybe on the back of this firms will see the evidence and do more to implement such measures because of the clear financial benefit it will bring them

The article is here for those who are interested:

Finally, Evidence That Diversity Improves Financial Performance

Findings from tens of thousands of VC investments.

hbr.org

Thank you for posting the article!

 

[Oroma]

The vast majority of people I have worked with would have had this approach anyway. I’d hope many would say that was how I approached Grad Rec too.

I guess I am just trying to work out what firms can do on a superficial level. A lot of this discussion so far is about what people see on a superficial level rather than experience.

On a superficial level, I think the first best step is definitely having a diverse grad rec. It’s a loud statement. Honestly speaking. Also, I think firms that have specific programmes for ethnic minorities usually paint a good image prima facie.

 

[Daniel Boden]

Thank you for posting the article!

You're very welcome - it's a good read!

 

[Jessica Booker]

On a superficial level, I think the first best step is definitely having a diverse grad rec. It’s a loud statement. Honestly speaking. Also, I think firms that have specific programmes for ethnic minorities usually paint a good image prima facie.

I really wish it was as simple as that. When a grad rec team is typically less than 5 people, diversity will be hit and miss, especially when HR is not a popular career destination for certain groups.

I have been fortunate to work with diverse teams, but ironically when it was at its most diverse, I was reporting into someone who despite being visually diverse, their attitudes were pretty awful (in my opinion but also had to call them out for using a racial slur against someone) and also very specific.

I guess I just get frustrated that as someone who looks visually white, I am always going to be at a disadvantage and it sounds like will have to work harder to convince people. Guess that’s the downside of my privilege though.

 

[Holly]

This is a bit off topic but I was curious if people feel they have been discriminated against because of their accent? I have a friend who was told that their accent could be a barrier and pose as a lack of strong ‘communication skills’. For context this was a few years ago at a law fair and they are from African descent.

I have a British accent so I obviously havent experienced this and was shocked that it even happened.

I wonder if this happens on a wider scale and if so, have firms done anything to create a more inclusive space for people who may feel like outsiders because of their accents?

I don’t know much about this so I can’t comment further but thought I’d open a discussion on this!

 

[Daniel Boden]

This is a bit off topic but I was curious if people feel they have been discriminated against because of their accent? I have a friend who was told that their accent could be a barrier and pose as a lack of strong ‘communication skills’. For context this was a few years ago at a law fair and they are from African descent.

I have a British accent so I obviously havent experienced this and was shocked that it even happened.

I wonder if this happens on a wider scale and if so, have firms done anything to create a more inclusive space for people who may feel like outsiders because of their accents?

I don’t know much about this so I can’t comment further but thought I’d open a discussion on this!

I've heard similar stories of girls/young women with a strong 'essex' accent facing similar issues breaking into the corporate world so would also be curious to hear people's thoughts on this

 

[Daniel Boden]

Also, in light of this topic, have people read the government's report into race relations in the UK that was released yesterday? I'm admittedly only a bit of the way through it and haven't finished it yet but from what I've read and seen online, it seems like a massively missed opportunity

 

[Jessica Booker]

This is a bit off topic but I was curious if people feel they have been discriminated against because of their accent? I have a friend who was told that their accent could be a barrier and pose as a lack of strong ‘communication skills’. For context this was a few years ago at a law fair and they are from African descent.

I have a British accent so I obviously havent experienced this and was shocked that it even happened.

I wonder if this happens on a wider scale and if so, have firms done anything to create a more inclusive space for people who may feel like outsiders because of their accents?

I don’t know much about this so I can’t comment further but thought I’d open a discussion on this!

I think the attitude on accents has changed, especially as firms have become more international and the work they are doing relies on both lawyers and clients with accents.

I am frank that I don’t think I would have started working in law firms if my parents hadn’t taught me to speak “posh” (my parents basically wanted me to avoid my Dad’s north London accent). But that was the best part of two decades ago.

But like many things there is probably still a way to go on this.

I am frank that I don’t think I would have started working in law firms if my parents hadn’t taught me to speak “posh” (my parents basically wanted me to avoid my Dad’s north London accent). But that was the best part of two decades ago.

I think accent these days is linked more to social mobility and how you speak, rather than your accent. I think it comes down to your content and language (eg phrases, knowing what to say, how to say it) rather than the regional differences.