Law firms & Diversity

[whisperingrock]

Convince??

You do not have to convince me to apply for a job that I have studied for!

Yes, but you may have to convince someone that they are welcome at a firm that has up till now had no black employees for example. Which is exactly the point of this thread.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Convince??

You do not have to convince me to apply for a job that I have studied for!

But you said you wouldn't apply. So clearly effort is needed to convince you in some situations.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

2020-21 Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion

Can I politely request that if we want this conversation around race to continue (happy to stay as involved as people want me to be - or not at all), that we create a new thread about it in the general discussion forum? It means this thread can stay on track with updates on vacation schemes for...

www.thecorporatelawacademy.com

 

[S87]

But you said you wouldn't apply. So clearly effort is needed to convince you in some situations.

If the firm adopted practical steps to welcome me then I would not need to be convinced

 

[Adanna]

Guys, am I being too harsh if I decide to not apply to law firms where there are no black people?

You’re not harsh, it is a hard and very often an uncomfortable situation where you can’t see yourself in a place where you will spend a significant amount of time.

I’m sure you know this but also I want to be frank that this is going to be the case for some time in the legal profession though, last time I checked black lawyers make up 3% of the work force (probably less when it comes to commercial law specifically) so quite frankly we are going to be one of the few for some time. Grateful for organisations like BMEN, WCAN, Black Men in Law etc working hard to change this narrative but it’s the narrative for now sadly. I’m very hopeful for a change for the next generation though which is why many of us here are working hard to get into this career and pull others with us!!

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

If the firm adopted practical steps to welcome me then I would not need to be convinced

What would you suggest to the firm that they would need to do if they haven't got any black representatives?

 

[whisperingrock]

If the firm adopted practical steps to welcome me then I would not need to be convinced

They would have to adopt practical steps to convince you that you are welcome. You are arguing semantics.

 

[S87]

What would you suggest to the firm that they would need to do if they haven't got any black representatives?

I sincerely do not know, but personally have diversity in their GR team could be a good step.

Having someone who could actually understand the experiences and the journey of minorities in this country could be a good step.
Organising events which allow the seniors to actually getting an understanding of the situation in this country.

I am not an expert but I do feel that something needs to change!

 

[Oroma]

Not to toot their horn but if anyone is black I actually recommend Kennedys and this is because I have previous experience with the firm and I’ve just finished my AC/Associate interview for a 2022 TC. This is my first cycle and my priority with choice was a firm I was sure I will be able to show up as myself everyday as I wasn’t going to compromise that for any reason. I’ve genuinely never felt so seen, heard and comfortable to confidently show up as my genuine self especially in a predominantly non-black space. Many firms talk diversity but in all honesty it is mostly perfunctory. I’m a dark-skinned black woman from Nigeria and the scenes are usually daunting because I know how many firms may try to sell diversity for the records but still expect candidates to tone down the blackness and conform to white standards of professionalism and co. Also, it’s one thing for firms to recruit black people to save face and its another thing to allow black people fill up the “important spaces” or go up the ranks. yeah, I genuinely think it is not harsh to be skeptical about applying to law firms that there are no black people in fact, it is right but see for yourself first, explore the firms culture instead of concluding based off what you see online.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

I sincerely do not know, but personally have diversity in their GR team could be a good step.

Having someone who could actually understand the experiences and the journey of minorities in this country could be a good step.
Organising events which allow the seniors to actually getting an understanding of the situation in this country.

I am not an expert but I do feel that something needs to change!

Hiring managers are mindful of that when they recruit into GR teams. But put frankly HR and Grad Rec is not a popular career destination for ethnic minorities. They tend to aim higher.

This was my (badly worded) point though. I can only understand someone's experiences as a Graduate Recruiter if they help me with my journey of learning about different people's experiences. I am highly active in learning about this (and have been for 13+ years now) but to me this is something I need people to take along with me, not just expect me to do it all myself.

 

[Oroma]

Not to toot their horn but if anyone is black I actually recommend Kennedys and this is because I have previous experience with the firm and I’ve just finished my AC/Associate interview for a 2022 TC. This is my first cycle and my priority with choice was a firm I was sure I will be able to show up as myself everyday as I wasn’t going to compromise that for any reason. I’ve genuinely never felt so seen, heard and comfortable to confidently show up as my genuine self especially in a predominantly non-black space. Many firms talk diversity but in all honesty it is mostly perfunctory. I’m a dark-skinned black woman from Nigeria and the scenes are usually daunting because I know how many firms may try to sell diversity for the records but still expect candidates to tone down the blackness and conform to white standards of professionalism and co. Also, it’s one thing for firms to recruit black people to save face and its another thing to allow black people fill up the “important spaces” or go up the ranks. yeah, I genuinely think it is not harsh to be skeptical about applying to law firms that there are no black people in fact, it is right but see for yourself first, explore the firms culture instead of concluding based off what you see online.

Also, one of the GR is a black man with dreads. It seems very insignificant but it was a huge statement for me when I went into my AC. I concluded my AC by asking him how much he is able to show up as himself everyday as a grad rec in the firm and he smiled and said “look at my hair, look at my beards”. I understood immediately. So yeah. They’ve won me over.

 

[TT98]

Personally, I think it would be interesting to see how law firms are tackling micro-aggressions in the workplace. I have been faced with some racist and discriminatory comments (both do with my race and gender) but never felt I could report these small comments because they ‘were just said in a casual conversation’ and while not in the obvious racist kind of way, they still had racist or sexist undertones, which is still part of the larger problem.

It would be interesting to see a report on the types of micro-aggressions people faced in a law firm and how they are tackling them.
Has any black person been told that their hair is unprofessional? Has any Muslim been laughed at while telling their colleagues that they are fasting, because they do not understand why they have to starve themselves? Are there social and networking events that are not just centred around drinking culture?

Unlikely that an investigation of this kind would take place, but nevertheless, it still would be interesting to know the types of things law firms are explicitly doing to create a diverse and inclusive culture, and not just celebrating black history month with some posters, or Diwali with some food.

 

[2020Applicant]

What would you suggest to the firm that they would need to do if they haven't got any black representatives?

In my opinion I'd like to see collaborations with organisations that have been working to increase diversity for a long time now such as Rare recruitment, Aspiring Solicitors, Black Solicitors Network. I think that would be an initial step to show commitment to improving diversity and having an understanding of the barriers that those from ethnic minority backgrounds face (as Rare recruitment do a lot of research).

I also think discussion events would be useful. By this I mean, having events during the recruitment season solely focused on diversity through which potential applicants can have open and honest conversations with the firm about any of their questions/concerns.

I think a firm without any black representatives would have to explain why they currently have such a lack of diversity, what attempts had they made previously to resolve their lack of diversity and if none, why have they now decided to do more (so that applicants can access whether there are true intentions for change occurring as opposed to performative statements).

Finally, I think a firm should be able to outline how they intend to make their working environment inclusive for black applicants, whether this is by having support groups in the firm and hiring HR representatives that are aware of how institutional racism plays out in the workplace.

 

[TT98]

Also, one of the GR is a black man with dreads. It seems very insignificant but it was a huge statement for me when I went into my AC. I concluded my AC by asking him how much he is able to show up as himself everyday as a grad rec in the firm and he smiled and said “look at my hair, look at my beards”. I understood immediately. So yeah. They’ve won me over.

I completely agree! I was pleasantly surprised by how diverse Kennedys was. On my AC most candidates were black or other ethnic minorities, the trainees we met were diverse. Their senior positions are also filled with a diverse bunch, and same with GR, it is so good to see. I encourage anyone looking for a diverse firm in the next app cycle to research into them!

 

[Kablahc]

I'm so glad this thread was created, this is such an important conversation to have!

I sincerely do not know, but personally have diversity in their GR team could be a good step.

Having someone who could actually understand the experiences and the journey of minorities in this country could be a good step.
Organising events which allow the seniors to actually getting an understanding of the situation in this country.

I am not an expert but I do feel that something needs to change!

I too am no expert - but I totally agree with this, as somebody who meets a lot of those 'diverse' checkboxes. Although I know GR and all HR professionals in general will be doing a LOT of training to understand what minorities face, a lot of us still have a hard time shaking off our bias towards certain groups and all it takes is one person (whether that's an associate, trainee, GR, or any other staff) who isn't receptive to foster a negative environment for POC or other minority groups. I feel like it will be a long time before it's totally eradicated in recruitment although we are making some really great steps in recent years so we need to keep on pushing and going like we're going!!

It can be so hard to go into a place feeling like even though everyone is nice they never fully understand your experience, whether you're POC/disabled/come from a different background. I totally get what you're saying here - I also definitely feel like we need more direction and empathy from people who are at the top. It's weird but it does so much for my confidence hearing somebody who is also from a similar group to me and in a senior position speaking at events - makes me feel like I actually have a chance to succeed in firms.

 

[Daniel Boden]

I sincerely do not know, but personally have diversity in their GR team could be a good step.

Having someone who could actually understand the experiences and the journey of minorities in this country could be a good step.
Organising events which allow the seniors to actually getting an understanding of the situation in this country.

I am not an expert but I do feel that something needs to change!

Completely agree with you that things have to change and I think they slowly are certainly judging by recent conversations I have had with black and other lawyers from minority ethnic backgrounds (I think the events of the last year have been a big wake up call for a lot of firms and about time too!).

Just to say that just because someone isn't black or a person of colour doesn't mean that they can't try and understand the experiences of minorities and the difficulties they go through - I know from personal experience all the events of the last year and the discussions that have taken place have been incredibly eye-opening for me as a white male and I can only hope that these will have a significant impact going forwards with people in my position now much more confident to call out micro-aggressions etc when they see them in the workplace. Hopefully, firms will be implementing measures to make that process much easier than it was perhaps previously.

I think the most important thing for law firms would be to prevent the attrition during associate years that causes so many diverse candidates from either leaving the firm or the profession altogether but how firms do that I'm not sure on and would be curious how you guys think that can be prevented?

 

[tractor12]

Not to toot their horn but if anyone is black I actually recommend Kennedys and this is because I have previous experience with the firm and I’ve just finished my AC/Associate interview for a 2022 TC. This is my first cycle and my priority with choice was a firm I was sure I will be able to show up as myself everyday as I wasn’t going to compromise that for any reason. I’ve genuinely never felt so seen, heard and comfortable to confidently show up as my genuine self especially in a predominantly non-black space. Many firms talk diversity but in all honesty it is mostly perfunctory. I’m a dark-skinned black woman from Nigeria and the scenes are usually daunting because I know how many firms may try to sell diversity for the records but still expect candidates to tone down the blackness and conform to white standards of professionalism and co. Also, it’s one thing for firms to recruit black people to save face and its another thing to allow black people fill up the “important spaces” or go up the ranks. yeah, I genuinely think it is not harsh to be skeptical about applying to law firms that there are no black people in fact, it is right but see for yourself first, explore the firms culture instead of concluding based off what you see online.

That's great to hear you had a positive experience. Out of interest, what did they say/do that made you feel so comfortable?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

In my opinion I'd like to see collaborations with organisations that have been working to increase diversity for a long time now such as Rare recruitment, Aspiring Solicitors, Black Solicitors Network. I think that would be an initial step to show commitment to improving diversity and having an understanding of the barriers that those from ethnic minority backgrounds face (as Rare recruitment do a lot of research).

I also think discussion events would be useful. By this I mean, having events during the recruitment season solely focused on diversity through which potential applicants can have open and honest conversations with the firm about any of their questions/concerns.

I think a firm without any black representatives would have to explain why they currently have such a lack of diversity, what attempts had they made previously to resolve their lack of diversity and if none, why have they now decided to do more (so that applicants can access whether there are true intentions for change occurring as opposed to performative statements).

Finally, I think a firm should be able to outline how they intend to make their working environment inclusive for black applicants, whether this is by having support groups in the firm and hiring HR representatives that are aware of how institutional racism plays out in the workplace.

Most firms I know, have worked in, or worked with have been actively working with one or more of those organisations for many years. There is nothing new to me to working with (and actually paying an absurd amount of money) to work with those organisations. For some firms, the costs of working with such organisations will be out of reach though. You also may not see some of the work that firms are doing with those organisations, as they are either very specific/targeted to groups of people that you might not fall into.

I agree firms should be doing more on points 2 and 3. Some are doing this though, especially with historically under-represented groups.

The difficulty is often choosing which group to focus on. It isn't always down to cost, time can be the biggest obstacle to doing things like you have suggested for point 4. One firm might want to do more with black applicants, and LGBTQ+, and disability, and social-mobility and gender (although with law, it is often targeting men within another protected characteristic). But they haven't got the time resource to do everything, so they choose the one that is the biggest problem to them or the one where they think they can have the most impact, which may mean the specific group you are hoping they will engage is not actively targeted.

 

[Oroma]

I completely agree! I was pleasantly surprised by how diverse Kennedys was. On my AC most candidates were black or other ethnic minorities, the trainees we met were diverse. Their senior positions are also filled with a diverse bunch, and same with GR, it is so good to see. I encourage anyone looking for a diverse firm in the next app cycle to research into them!

I’m even happier to hear this. We were 7 in my AC I was the only black candidate in my ac and there was an asian man; the other five candidates were white but I still felt really comfortable and it was really pleasant!

 

[Adanna]

Personally, I think it would be interesting to see how law firms are tackling micro-aggressions in the workplace. I have been faced with some racist and discriminatory comments (both do with my race and gender) but never felt I could report these small comments because they ‘were just said in a casual conversation’ and while not in the obvious racist kind of way, they still had racist or sexist undertones, which is still part of the larger problem.

It would be interesting to see a report on the types of micro-aggressions people faced in a law firm and how they are tackling them.
Has any black person been told that their hair is unprofessional? Has any Muslim been laughed at while telling their colleagues that they are fasting, because they do not understand why they have to starve themselves? Are there social and networking events that are not just centred around drinking culture?

Unlikely that an investigation of this kind would take place, but nevertheless, it still would be interesting to know the types of things law firms are explicitly doing to create a diverse and inclusive culture, and not just celebrating black history month with some posters, or Diwali with some food.

Yeah I agree with this, and I think this can only
come from representation of these minority groups, because frankly for the majority of people, if it does not affect you, you often will not work hard to change it. So I think the important question is what is causing the lack of representation, what is the root? I’m not a sociologist but anecdotally, something I have noticed (and often discuss with my law friends) is that firms have no problem financially or socially with hosting D&I events, many do now. But what black applicants honestly need is not another panel discussion on how much your firm cares about diversity, we NEED practical advice on what you as law firm are looking for in applications and interviews, events on building commercial awareness, do’s and dont’s in your apps, what you are looking for in vac scheme students when deciding to offer TC’s.

Don’t think the intersectionality of black people, socio-economic class, and the university you attended can be ignored. A lot of what I mentioned above is ingrained in private schools, the big intl law firms focus primarily on oxbridge and Russell groups, allowing them more access to firms and their culture very early on in your degree and career journey and the majority of these students are white middle class students. I don’t want to waffle but I usually see it as a web of different things that cannot be fixed by events and a commitment to diversity. A gap of knowledge needs to be closed if we want real change. Again want to mention great orgs trying to do this, partnering with law firms to allow more state school, non Russel group (who are often black and BAME) students this type of insight that is readily available in other institutions: WCAN, BMEN, Black Men in Law, Aspiring Solicitors. The more this gap is closed I honestly think the more representation will change.