TCLA Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion Thread 2021-22 (#1)

[lawstudent1998]

21st June! What office did you apply for?

Congrats, what stream is this for?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

I am unable to access the links. I am getting this response "You do not have access to The Corporate Law Academy. Please contact an admin to add you as a member."

Hi @donxerxer

Apologies - the links are to our team's system where we store these useful posts/threads rather than the links to the posts themselves. Here are the links to the forum content:

Preparing for CV based interviews

"Definitive Guide" interview article

CAR structure example

Competency v motivational questions

"Definitive Guide" case study article

 

[AvniD]

I am unable to access the links. I am getting this response "You do not have access to The Corporate Law Academy. Please contact an admin to add you as a member."

Alright, I'll include a range of links below so that you can prepare widely. Also know that we have a mock interview service that you can check out here if you feel the need to give practicing a go.

• CV-based interview tips
• Definitive interview guide
• CAR structure example
• Competency v motivational questions
• Definitive guide for case studies

My apologies- they should be working for you now!

 

[LawfulRust00]

This might be an obvious question but is it always necessary to complete the LPC/SQE before embarking on a training contract?

 

[FutureLawyer99]

Congrats, what stream is this for?

London business one

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

This might be an obvious question but is it always necessary to complete the LPC/SQE before embarking on a training contract?

No - you could always do the LPC during your TC, it’s just the vast majority of firms didn’t do this.

The SQE means you technically don’t even need a degree before starting your training contract now. But most firms are sticking to the existing model of passing the training before starting the work experience. A few firms are allowing you to study for the SQE whilst you do the training contract though (Kennedys for example).

 

[GXA123]

Can anyone who attended a VS at Pinsent before DM me please?

 

[lawstudent321]

21st June! What office did you apply for?

Liverpool. You?

 

[James Carrabino]

Hi everyone, I am unsure that this is the right thread, but after failing to transform a VS in a TC, I asked for detailed feedback. The motivations I was provided with when they actually called me, did not make any sense and were so vague that I was really bothered ("you did not manage to demonstrate enough enthusiasm"....like ok... I can't even really tell you how ridiculous it was...).
But the weird thing is that when I asked for specific feedback, they e-mailed back saying that they could reply to my email or arrange a call, the choice was completely mine.
Now, I work over 50 hours a week and I spent way too much time to go through their assessment process and to attend a scheme there - I am also residing abroad and the whole experience was very difficult for me already...I am frustrated and I would rather hear from them by email. So I send them my preference and they reply saying that becuase my email address is external and in order to comply with their data protection policy it is best to arrange a call.
I am really annoyed now. What are they talking about? Is it so hard to provide proper feedback by email? Does anyone else have similar experience or were unable to get written feebdack?
I swear my impression given this approach is that their assessment criteria are non existent and their decision-making process is random. I am so angry....looking for reassurance :/

@sh.95 I am really sorry to hear this; it is always awful failing to convert a VS and I can understand that are seeking thorough and reasoned feedback. I am not sure that you should worry too much about whether or not they give you a phone call or send an e-mail, however.

I remember when applying that I felt the exact same way as you, especially after one firm where I attended a vac scheme (and was unsuccessful in getting a TC offer) sent a simple rejection e-mail stating that it was unable to offer feedback due to the number of applicants!

But then I did receive feedback from some firms post-VS, post-AC, post-VI and even post-application form and I realised that whilst feedback can sometimes seem useful, it often is not and it can be very unsatisfying (as you seem to be facing) or even counter-productive.

First of all, feedback is often not transferrable between firms. The firm which gave me post-application form feedback told me that I should have related my answer to 'Why commercial law?' back to the firm, whilst I know that other firms explicitly do not want candidates to do this, emphasising that applicants should only answer the exact question being asked. I think that feedback is only really helpful where there is some sort of standard for a clear 'before and after' comparison.

Indeed, feedback can be very useful where there is a clear metric being assessed, such as in a psychometric test or perhaps even in competency answers involving a formulaic list of questions (such as in a Video Interview) where the goal is to assess whether candidates identify and demonstrate relevant competencies.

Feedback can be unhelpful, however, as it becomes more subjective in environments like an interview or vacation scheme. Remember that law is an inherently human profession and as much as firms try to standardise the process, there is no true standard and everything boils down to whether you, as a person, are who they are looking for at that point in time. Things that factor in heavily are whether recruiters think you would fit into the firm culture or whether your interviewers or the people reading your application *like* you from what they know about you. Consequently, I think that the quality of the feedback is unlikely to be very different by e-mail than what they would give you over the phone.

I have two anecdotal examples that may illustrate why firms have a tough time coming up with proper feedback to give to candidates:

• A firm told my friend after an AC that he performed excellently in his interview but that in the trainee meet-and-greet session he was reported to have asked what it felt like to see a deal in the newspaper after working on it, which led them to wonder what his real motivation for pursuing law was. The reason they gave him struck me as rather dubious - would one question like this during an informal chat with trainees really scupper an offer if everything else were excellent? Or was the issue that the firm simply preferred other candidates for a variety of more intangible reasons and had to actively come up with a concrete reason purely for the sake of the feedback? This sounds like it could be similar to the comment about 'lack of enthusiasm' that you received, as if the firm was simply searching for a piece of feedback to give you, which obviously isn't very helpful.

• On the opposite side of the spectrum, a firm offered me post-vac scheme feedback where the head of graduate recruitment told me in a zoom call that I did very well throughout the vac scheme, although my educational background (I was in the middle of a master's degree in music) made them question whether I really wanted to become a lawyer and this worried them as they did not want the possibility of their trainees leaving law after qualifying. In my opinion, this is a completely fair reason to select trainees and it was probably the most honest piece of feedback I received... but it was not feedback on my performance. Nothing I could have done during the vac scheme would have changed this concern and so there was no advice I could take with me going forward, but for the fact I should maybe drop out of the process if my educational background was going to stop me obtaining a Training Contract. Luckily, I committed to self-reflection on controlling the things that I could control and improving in areas where I felt that I could do better, and I ended up succeeding in the process (after 40 applications)

I do not know what the exact data issue is surrounding a phone call vs an e-mail in your situation, but I think that you will have a tough time finding really useful feedback either way. The fact of the matter is that whilst many candidates will fall down for a 'mistake' of some sort, the number who do not make any such mistakes will still far exceed the number of interview spaces available. Also, what if a candidate does make such a mistake but the rest of their application is stellar and the firm really wants to interview them?

In some cases, feedback may only lead to further frustration for candidates who believe that they did not make the mistake they were told they made, who do not understand how to implement the feedback, or who feel that they did in fact implement feedback from another firm and that now they are being told something contradictory. At the end of the day, the most important thing is self-reflection and not a value judgement by a stranger, in my opinion!

 

[James Carrabino]

Has anyone had any positive experience with being rejected post-AC for a VS and then having some success after applying for a direct TC with the same firm within the same cycle? I was strongly encouraged to reapply for the direct TC route that opens this summer in my AC feedback call and although it doesn't conflict with any policy (only applying once per cycle etc) I am wondering how I can improve my application or how likely I will make it to the AC stage when my experiences are unlikely to change between now and the summer?

Hi @iamJW! In my case, I was rejected post-Video Interview for a law firm and had success applying for a direct TC in the same cycle - I know that this is not exactly the same as being rejected post-AC, but if the firm has nothing stating that you cannot reapply in the same cycle and if you were actively encouraged to apply for the direct TC route, then I would definitely recommend doing so and many of the same principles apply to my post-VI rejection.

I have written about this specific scenario here under 'Firm D' and the most useful thing was to take feedback on board in advance of the next video interview. I know that you want to control everything you can control in advance of a future application, but the issue may not even be that your preparation was incorrect, simply that your implementation was incorrect.

For example, if your written exercise was poorly structured, if you spoke too infrequently during your group exercise or if you didn't concisely answer the questions in your interview, then these are things you simply have to think about ahead of the next AC and it does not mean that you prepared the wrong material. So my starting point on improving would be simply to take feedback in mind!

In terms of how likely it is that you will make it to AC stage, I would take the fact that your experiences got you to AC stage once, coupled with the fact that you were encouraged to apply again just a few months later, to mean that they cannot expect you to have done much more to get to AC stage the next time. This is no guarantee that you will get to AC stage, because any one of a number of factors could happen (e.g. a different person reads your application next time etc) but what it tells me is that they are not going to reject you on the basis that you have not improved since your last application (since they cannot reasonably expect much to change in such a short period of time).

It is worth mentioning that I know someone who was rejected post-VS for a firm and subsequently managed to get accepted onto the same firm's vac scheme the following year and receive a TC offer! So if that can happen, then I am sure that you can also be successful in your case

 

[James Carrabino]

Hi guys, (sorry this may not be the right place to post) just wondering if anyone has any experience/tips regarding reshaping your mindset after failing to convert a VS?
It's my first VS - I understand that it's a learning process & you can improve based on your feedback (yet to receive), but I'm slightly trapped by my own "if you can't make this one you're probably not gonna make the other schemes because no one wants you" thinking
I have 2 other schemes in the summer - would really appreciate any tips & insights

@Arendt0927 I want to start by saying how sorry I am to hear that you have found yourself in this position. Think about the positives, though, which are that you have two more opportunities to shine this summer! Imagine what all those candidates are feeling who were riding all their hopes on that VS and have been rejected. You, on the other hand, are clearly an excellent enough candidate that you managed to secure THREE vacation schemes and so I am confident that you will have success. Ultimately, there is so much luck to the process that you have done yourself very well to have three opportunities to play the odds In the meantime, make sure to get feedback and reflect on how to improve in advance of your next schemes!

The very worst thing that could happen to you is that you get rejected from all three vacation schemes, but let me tell you it's not the end of the world. Guess what...I found myself in that exact position but received two TC offers by the end of the cycle nonetheless. I was rejected from three vacation schemes in the space of three months and every single one was brutal. Spending an entire application cycle building up to those schemes, with confidence that I would be able to convert at least one of them, meant that I just felt completely hopeless when I realised that I had failed to do so. The latter two post-vac scheme rejections came on the same day no less!! I allowed myself to be despondent for about 24 hours before I sat down and started looking at upcoming direct TC deadlines.

The day after I received both of those two rejections, I sent off an app that ended up in a TC offer less than a month later. The day after that I sent off another app that ended up in another TC offer! This was all in July right at the end of the cycle. The learning process of getting the vac schemes and subsequently being rejected from them was invaluable in ultimately getting me to a firm that I love. I also got a genuinely interesting and varied perspective of the kind of work that City lawyers do, so I have no regrets about any of these experiences.

Take time to reflect and then realise that you have two vac schemes remaining and that even if you were to somehow fail those like I did (you won't) then you will still have time left this cycle to apply to direct TCs! Of course it would be great to be all done with the process, but I sincerely think that the more work one puts into researching and applying to firms now pays dividends in the long run. You do not necessarily want to default into the first firm that offered you a vac scheme - it is great to have the opportunity to learn from that experience what areas of law you are interested in and which firms you should be looking at going forward.

It is an incredible feat that you got your vacation schemes in the first place, so congratulations!!! Firms will recognise how impressive this is. I went from getting past the application stage ~10% of the time before having a vac scheme on my CV to ~80% of the time once I did. Consequently, you would be in an enviable position when this experience enables you to receive multiple offers in the future and gives you the opportunity to make a reasoned choice abut which firm is best for you! With two upcoming vacation schemes, a lot of time left to make more applications, a vacation scheme already on your CV and confidence in your interview ability, you will find yourself in a pretty good position if you draw upon your resilience and keep moving forward

As I already mentioned, try to get feedback! I was not able to do so before each subsequent scheme after my first one; the first scheme simply refused to provide feedback and the other two schemes took place back to back. You have most of the cycle still ahead of you in which you can implement this feedback in both ACs and on your future vac schemes.

Either way, I know that you will bounce back stronger than ever

 

[James Carrabino]

Well after sending off somewhere in the realm of 200+ applications over 4 years, and slowly but surely getting the hang of completing online applications/assessment centres & interviews, I finally have my dream TC at Clyde & Co. I appreciate this TCLA community more than you know and I am genuinely thankful and grateful for all of the support I received from this community which got me over the edge! I wish everyone else on here the best of luck with their future challenges and objectives, and hope I can provide my own tips going forward on this forum!

Congratulations @DTS!!! It sounds like it may have been worth the wait

 

[James Carrabino]

Dear all,

I have just been notified that I have failed converting a spring vacation scheme into a training contract. I feel quite lost particularly since I am a final year international student...

I also wonder whether my vacation scheme experience will be a good asset for future applications I am extremely anxious of getting questioned 'explain why you failed'.

I would appreciate any comments. Thank you so much.

@Logitech, I am very sorry to hear this. You still have time left in this cycle, though, and I would like to direct you below to the post I wrote to @Arendt0927 who found themselves in a similar situation. I have been there, as have many others, and I am sure you will be able to bounce back and get your dream TC. Your vacation scheme experience will definitely be an asset, by the way! Despite discussing in depth my experiences on vac schemes during subsequent interviews, I never got asked whether I had converted those vac schemes.

I hope this helps

@Arendt0927 I want to start by saying how sorry I am to hear that you have found yourself in this position. Think about the positives, though, which are that you have two more opportunities to shine this summer! Imagine what all those candidates are feeling who were riding all their hopes on that VS and have been rejected. You, on the other hand, are clearly an excellent enough candidate that you managed to secure THREE vacation schemes and so I am confident that you will have success. Ultimately, there is so much luck to the process that you have done yourself very well to have three opportunities to play the odds In the meantime, make sure to get feedback and reflect on how to improve in advance of your next schemes!

The very worst thing that could happen to you is that you get rejected from all three vacation schemes, but let me tell you it's not the end of the world. Guess what...I found myself in that exact position but received two TC offers by the end of the cycle nonetheless. I was rejected from three vacation schemes in the space of three months and every single one was brutal. Spending an entire application cycle building up to those schemes, with confidence that I would be able to convert at least one of them, meant that I just felt completely hopeless when I realised that I had failed to do so. The latter two post-vac scheme rejections came on the same day no less!! I allowed myself to be despondent for about 24 hours before I sat down and started looking at upcoming direct TC deadlines.

The day after I received both of those two rejections, I sent off an app that ended up in a TC offer less than a month later. The day after that I sent off another app that ended up in another TC offer! This was all in July right at the end of the cycle. The learning process of getting the vac schemes and subsequently being rejected from them was invaluable in ultimately getting me to a firm that I love. I also got a genuinely interesting and varied perspective of the kind of work that City lawyers do, so I have no regrets about any of these experiences.

Take time to reflect and then realise that you have two vac schemes remaining and that even if you were to somehow fail those like I did (you won't) then you will still have time left this cycle to apply to direct TCs! Of course it would be great to be all done with the process, but I sincerely think that the more work one puts into researching and applying to firms now pays dividends in the long run. You do not necessarily want to default into the first firm that offered you a vac scheme - it is great to have the opportunity to learn from that experience what areas of law you are interested in and which firms you should be looking at going forward.

It is an incredible feat that you got your vacation schemes in the first place, so congratulations!!! Firms will recognise how impressive this is. I went from getting past the application stage ~10% of the time before having a vac scheme on my CV to ~80% of the time once I did. Consequently, you would be in an enviable position when this experience enables you to receive multiple offers in the future and gives you the opportunity to make a reasoned choice abut which firm is best for you! With two upcoming vacation schemes, a lot of time left to make more applications, a vacation scheme already on your CV and confidence in your interview ability, you will find yourself in a pretty good position if you draw upon your resilience and keep moving forward

As I already mentioned, try to get feedback! I was not able to do so before each subsequent scheme after my first one; the first scheme simply refused to provide feedback and the other two schemes took place back to back. You have most of the cycle still ahead of you in which you can implement this feedback in both ACs and on your future vac schemes.

Either way, I know that you will bounce back stronger than ever

 

[BM99]

Just a silly question, does it matter a lot about where you complete your training contract? For instance, if I did not do a training contract at a MC firm, just a ordinary global law firm, can I still transfer to MC firms or top US firms in the future?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Just a silly question, does it matter a lot about where you complete your training contract? For instance, if I did not do a training contract at a MC firm, just a ordinary global law firm, can I still transfer to MC firms or top US firms in the future?

If we are talking generally, then people do move across firms, from global international firms to MC/US firms - it’s not like it never happens.

However, this is a real blanket statement and the reality is how likely you can move is going to depend on a whole range of factors, from which firm it was, to what seats you do, to where you qualify into (if moving as a PQE lawyer), to the type of clients you work with.

If you are ever unsure, do a bit of digging on LinkedIn by using the search function using the name of the firm you may train at and the name(s) of the firm(s) you are aiming for and the word associate, and filter down by current employer and location. It won’t be a completely accurate way to do it, but it’s probably one of the better ways to gauge how possible it will be to move.

 

[Vacationschemeapps]

Hi, @James Carrabino @Jessica Booker, @AvniD - I have a vac scheme lined up with CMS for the summer and was wondering if you guys have any advice on how to impress the firm at the scheme?

Would be super grateful!!

 

[S87]

Hi guys,

Is it possible to compare, in a cover letter, your hard-working spirit/resilience to the firm's growth?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Hi guys,

Is it possible to compare, in a cover letter, your hard-working spirit/resilience to the firm's growth?

Yes, it is possible to do it and I have seen similar links of the individual's characteristics and the firm's status/value/position in letters before.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Hi, @James Carrabino @Jessica Booker, @AvniD - I have a vac scheme lined up with CMS for the summer and was wondering if you guys have any advice on how to impress the firm at the scheme?

Would be super grateful!!

Hi @Vacationschemeapps - there is lots of useful information/advice and links in this thread that you may want to read: Converting your vacation scheme into a training contract - top tips in 2021 | The Corporate Law Academy Forum

 

[S87]

Yes, it is possible to do it and I have seen similar links of the individual's characteristics and the firm's status/value/position in letters before.

Thank you @Jessica Booker