I would rather they did not, and instead hired a few more 'diverse' candidates for a TC and let them go at the end.
I would rather they did not, and instead hired a few more 'diverse' candidates for a TC and let them go at the end.
Hey, where did you find your portal? I can’t find mine for some reason. Also do you know if they r sending out calls and emails about results? I also did the AC with you🥲For those who have done an AC for Fieldfisher, I suggest checking your application on recruitment portal. Mine said I was "Declined/withdrawn". I did not withdraw my application so I can only assume the former. I have emailed recruitment for more details but I think its a sign of what their decision is. Not for certain but likely.
For more details, I took the AC on the 26th for the diversity scheme in Birmingham. Haven't heard anything since. Pretty sure its cause I fucked up the written assessment (it was too simplistic and I regurgitated the info from the memo) and I waffled on some answers in the interview. Hope this helps.
We removed the post as it breached TCLA’s terms and rules, so we would rather it wasn’t repeated.Sorry do you mind sharing who the original poster was and what they said? The post has been removed 😕
I kinda disagree with the clients comment. It’s actually the clients that are pushing firms to be more diverse because clients want to see greater diversity on their legal panels when pitching for work. In fact, several clients do specific awards for law firms with diversity. So it’s not looked as favourable at all if they see Oxbridge students during a client meeting. You will never see a client asking lawyers what their alma mater is, very unlikely. No clue where you got the idea from that law firms would supposedly use the fact that they’ve got Oxbridge alumni to pitch for work from clients.They are thinking of their clients. If they take Oxbridge, MIT, and Harvard graduates to a client meeting it looks more favourable for them in the pitch against other law firms. Would they really take 100% non-Oxbridge, like Uni of East London and Middlesex, I really don't think so. There has been a push for more diversity, but more is 1 or 2, they will not upset their status quo. Yes they will invite more to ACs, the vacation schemes etc, and maybe even take one or two for a TC, but in the long term, they know what they are after....I genuinely think law firms spend soo much money on diversity and inclusion, but its all just an illusion to appear more diverse. I would rather they did not, and instead hired a few more 'diverse' candidates for a TC and let them go at the end. At least that way they can make their own way in life.
Firms are seeing DEI as a badge of honour, but its not... It just shows how non-inclusive the firms are. I dont see TfL or the NHS doing DEI, because they have no need to. When will law firms get to the stage that they dont need DEI because its just there
While I agree with your point about the moral and cultural imperative for greater diversity, the facts are different from my point of view.I agree with the sentiment entirely, but there are also many, many BAME, disabled and working class Oxbridge candidates I’ve met at ACs -- and at large.
There’s a moral and cultural imperative for greater diversity at all levels of the hiring and recruitment process (as a lgbtq+ poc myself), but I don't think Oxbridge entails an inherent lack of diversity -- though its institutional dominance is something that is obviously worth interrogating.
Again, I agree but, respectfully, I do think it needs more nuance.
This is over estimating people’s knowledge of people’s educational background, whether a client or a colleague in a law firm.They are thinking of their clients. If they take Oxbridge, MIT, and Harvard graduates to a client meeting it looks more favourable for them in the pitch against other law firms. Would they really take 100% non-Oxbridge, like Uni of East London and Middlesex, I really don't think so. There has been a push for more diversity, but more is 1 or 2, they will not upset their status quo. Yes they will invite more to ACs, the vacation schemes etc, and maybe even take one or two for a TC, but in the long term, they know what they are after....I genuinely think law firms spend soo much money on diversity and inclusion, but its all just an illusion to appear more diverse. I would rather they did not, and instead hired a few more 'diverse' candidates for a TC and let them go at the end. At least that way they can make their own way in life.
Firms are seeing DEI as a badge of honour, but its not... It just shows how non-inclusive the firms are. I dont see TfL or the NHS doing DEI, because they have no need to. When will law firms get to the stage that they dont need DEI because its just there
Completely this.I kinda disagree with the clients comment. It’s actually the clients that are pushing firms to be more diverse because clients want to see greater diversity on their legal panels when pitching for work. In fact, several clients do specific awards for law firms with diversity. So it’s not looked as favourable at all if they see Oxbridge students during a client meeting. You will never see a client asking lawyers what their alma mater is, very unlikely. No clue where you got the idea from that law firms would supposedly use the fact that they’ve got Oxbridge alumni to pitch for work from clients.
Also, let's remember that many firms have bespoke dinners or events at Oxbridge universities, this is something I learnt during my vacation schemes. Some of my fellow vac schemers had also drinks with partners and associates after the vs and guess who is still on the forum?While I agree with your point about the moral and cultural imperative for greater diversity, the facts are different from my point of view.
For me personally, diversity is not just about white, black, Asian etc.
Why does a white eton educated Oxbridge graduate have more chances of getting a tc in comparison to a white working class non Oxbridge graduate?
Why does a black eton educated Oxbridge graduate have more chances of getting a tc in comparison to a black working class non Oxbridge graduate?
Yes, I agree about the institutional dominance. But I think saying that BAME, working class, and disabled candidates are at large at ACs it’s a stretch. Maybe that’s your experience, but mine has been different.
I have nothing against Oxbridge, but I despise elitism. A candidate should be evaluated taking every factor into account. From my point of view, a non Oxbridge working class person (whether ethnic minority or not) working part time during university and not being spoon fed cause of rich parents has more potential.
Moreover, how does a 19 years olds candidate from Oxbridge with nothing on his CV show a passion for a career in law? Firms are always crying about “passion for commercial law”, then how someone with no tangible passion for law in the CV showed up at the AC at a particular us law firm?
I kinda disagree with the clients comment. It’s actually the clients that are pushing firms to be more diverse because clients want to see greater diversity on their legal panels when pitching for work. In fact, several clients do specific awards for law firms with diversity. So it’s not looked as favourable at all if they see Oxbridge students during a client meeting. You will never see a client asking lawyers what their alma mater is, very unlikely. No clue where you got the idea from that law firms would supposedly use the fact that they’ve got Oxbridge alumni to pitch for work from clients.
Having said that, I am black and disabled so I know how hard this process is and got two vs last year. However, there are some good people and firms that are pushing hard for people like you and me. A bit of positivity guys and let's write good applications. One question left to answer in my app and then endless amendments 🤣Also, let's remember that many firms have bespoke dinners or events at Oxbridge universities, this is something I learnt during my vacation schemes. Some of my fellow vac schemers had also drinks with partners and associates after the vs and guess who is still on the forum?
But there are many working class, non-Eton-educated Oxbridge students?While I agree with your point about the moral and cultural imperative for greater diversity, the facts are different from my point of view.
For me personally, diversity is not just about white, black, Asian etc.
Why does a white eton educated Oxbridge graduate have more chances of getting a tc in comparison to a white working class non Oxbridge graduate?
Why does a black eton educated Oxbridge graduate have more chances of getting a tc in comparison to a black working class non Oxbridge graduate?
Yes, I agree about the institutional dominance. But I think saying that BAME, working class, and disabled candidates are at large at ACs it’s a stretch. Maybe that’s your experience, but mine has been different.
I have nothing against Oxbridge, but I despise elitism. A candidate should be evaluated taking every factor into account. From my point of view, a non Oxbridge working class person (whether ethnic minority or not) working part time during university and not being spoon fed cause of rich parents has more potential.
Moreover, how does a 19 years olds candidate from Oxbridge with nothing on his CV show a passion for a career in law? Firms are always crying about “passion for commercial law”, then how someone with no tangible passion for law in the CV showed up at the AC at a particular us law firm?
Both TfL and the NHS invest incredibly heavily into ED&I, both with money and also resource. There will be hundreds of people across the NHS working in ED&I roles and at least seven at TfL.Firms are seeing DEI as a badge of honour, but its not... It just shows how non-inclusive the firms are. I dont see TfL or the NHS doing DEI, because they have no need to. When will law firms get to the stage that they dont need DEI because its just there
Thanks for the reply. I did not say non-Oxbridge do not go to client meetings. I meant that in my humble opinion, they will always maintain their Oxbridge base... some non-Oxbridge/Russell group will get the TC but I doubt there will be times when the pitch is entirely or majority non-Oxbridge/ Russell group.This is over estimating people’s knowledge of people’s educational background, whether a client or a colleague in a law firm.
The idea that non Oxbridge trainee/lawyers don’t go to meetings because clients expect them to be from certain universities just doesn’t align with what happens in reality.
What does a lawyers profile on the website have anything to do with client meetings though? You are not making coherent points. Have you ever done a client pitch exercise at a law firm before?"You will never see a client asking lawyers what their alma mater is"
You just need to check the profile of law firms, that why they put their uni institution there.
The outcome kind of speaks for itself. If they truly wanted diverse candidates, they are applying in bucket loads, they are just not hiring, retaining and developing them...
but we can agree to disagree
I am not diminishing anyone’s hard work. By the way I connected with them on LinkedIn, so it wasn’t an off-hand comment.But there are many working class, non-Eton-educated Oxbridge students?
Also, how do you know what's on their CV? What a candidate reveals to you in an off-hand comment does not relate to their worthiness and validity to attend an AC.
I think, instead of somewhat diminishing the hard work invested by fellow peers, there are other ways to promote diversity.
I entirely respect your pov, but still think the conversation needs nuance.
I think it’s more that some law firms want people who have a certain ‘polish’ because they think it means they’ll gel well with clients and can hold their own in conversations, and they associate Oxbridge students or applicants who are privately educated/middle class with having this ‘polish’. Of course they’re mistaken but because they want this worldly kind of person, they seem to think that students from idk Queen Mary or City University don’t have this.I kinda disagree with the clients comment. It’s actually the clients that are pushing firms to be more diverse because clients want to see greater diversity on their legal panels when pitching for work. In fact, several clients do specific awards for law firms with diversity. So it’s not looked as favourable at all if they see Oxbridge students during a client meeting. You will never see a client asking lawyers what their alma mater is, very unlikely. No clue where you got the idea from that law firms would supposedly use the fact that they’ve got Oxbridge alumni to pitch for work from clients.
I get your point but I think people are forgetting that your educational background has nothing to do with client meetings or clients in general. The fact that ‘polished’ students may gel well better with clients, has nothing to do with the clients when selecting firms to represent them. You also need to remember that “clients” are an entire company and not a singular person.I think it’s more that law firms want people who have a certain ‘polish’ because they think it means they’ll gel well with clients and can hold their own in conversations, and they associate Oxbridge students or applicants who are privately educated with having this ‘polish’. Of course they’re mistaken but they want this worldly kind of person and seem to think that students from idk Queen Mary or City University don’t have this.
People are subconsciously drawn to those who are similar to them. So I know during interviews with white male partners who are middle class, that my friends who went to Eton will be able to instantly click with such interviewers. Obviously law firms try a lot to overcome this but I think this is what OP was hinting at. They don’t think I can have that polish/or that they could train me to have that polish - or ability to make small talk or instant rapport. It doesn’t mean they don’t hire any students like this, it just means it is sometimes just a bit harder if you are a candidate who are from a certain background.
The NHS is the biggest LGBTQIA employer, you should see their parade during the London Pride lol!Both TfL and the NHS invest incredibly heavily into ED&I, both with money and also resource. There will be hundreds of people across the NHS working in ED&I roles and at least seven at TfL.
Of course there will always be Oxbridge representation in law firms. That in itself is needed for the same reason that recruiting beyond Oxbridge is important.Thanks for the reply. I did not say non-Oxbridge do not go to client meetings. I meant that in my humble opinion, they will always maintain their Oxbridge base... some non-Oxbridge/Russell group will get the TC but I doubt there will be times when the pitch is entirely or majority non-Oxbridge/ Russell group.
"Both TfL and the NHS invest incredibly heavily into ED&I"...
My point still stands. When will law firms get to the point where they dont need DEI?
They must be spending hundreds of thousands on DEI, and yet its one in-one out...
Why not use that money to recruit more diverse candidates instead of pretending to do DEI.
Many DEI professionals have confirmed that some law firms just do DEI for lip service.
We can agree to disagree