Ask 3 future trainees (Magic & Silver Circle, International Elite) ANYTHING! *New TCLA Team Members*

[Naomi U]

Hi @Jacob Miller @Dheepa @Naomi U

Thank you for all your insights so far! I received a call last Thursday offering me a vacation scheme with a law firm. I am now wondering if you would recommend asking for feedback following my Assessment Centre? So that they know, I am keen on taking on feedback and improve professionally? Or would you that (because I was successful) not leave a good impression on HR?

Thank you

Hiya

Congrats on your vac scheme offer!

Completely agree with Dheepa, absolutely nothing wrong with asking.

 

[castrooo]

Hiya, first off congrats on your VS! Really happy for you!

No I don’t think it will leave a bad impression at all. I asked for feedback too after successful offers just so I could improve on my performance during the vac. It might take some time for GR to get back to you though just because it’s generally a busy time of year for them, but I think it’s a great idea to ask for the feedback and you should definitely do it!

Hiya

Congrats on your vac scheme offer!

Completely agree with Dheepa, absolutely nothing wrong with asking.

Thank you both! I will email them once I have formally accepted the offer this week Thank you!

 

[Daniel Boden]

Hi all,

I am not sure whether you can help out with this but I am trying to figure out Jones Day's rivals and I am really struggling. I followed a guide written by Jaysen, checked Legal 500, etc. However, it seems like Jones Day is competing with so many very different firms in many different practice areas (from Eversheds through the Magic Circle to some other US firms). I would appreciate any advice. Thanks

Yeah, the best way to go through this is to do as @Jacob Miller suggested and that is to acknowledge the firm's different competitors in its different practice areas. That shows a really good nuanced view (and is how partners normally do it in my experience) and a recognition that the firm has different strengths and rivals that aren't the same across said practice areas.

 

[Dheepa]

Hi @Jacob Miller @Dheepa @Naomi U, thank you for sharing your wisdom on the forum!

I was very fortunate to have attended several ACs in the past few application cycles but have failed at the application stage for 95% of my applications this year. I have attained better grades compared to the previous year and have also gone on to complete a postgraduate degree at a more reputable university. I have also been very fortunate to gain access to career coaching this year. Nonetheless, I am still failing horrendously. I understand that competition in the industry is always fierce but could I ask what could have possibly gone wrong in the process? Thank you in advance .

Hi Amor,

I'm sorry to hear this app cycle hasn't been as good for you but I think it's great that you're trying still going strong and trying to find ways to improve.

Personally I think it can be really hard to provide feedback on where you're going wrong with your apps especially without actually reading them. It may be that if you're applying to the same firms you previously interviewed at, perhaps your apps haven't changed substantially enough to show all the development you have made since your first application.

I'd really recommend trying out the application review service on TCLA to retrospectively review some unsuccessful apps you have submitted because I feel like it will really help you identify any areas of improvement in more detail!

 

[Jacob Miller]

Hi @Jacob Miller @Dheepa @Naomi U, thank you for sharing your wisdom on the forum!

I was very fortunate to have attended several ACs in the past few application cycles but have failed at the application stage for 95% of my applications this year. I have attained better grades compared to the previous year and have also gone on to complete a postgraduate degree at a more reputable university. I have also been very fortunate to gain access to career coaching this year. Nonetheless, I am still failing horrendously. I understand that competition in the industry is always fierce but could I ask what could have possibly gone wrong in the process? Thank you in advance .

Hi Amor,

I totally agree with everything Dheepa has mentioned here. Going through a period of rejections can be really though, so I really commend you for being up front about this and asking for help in such a public space. While it's challenging to give specific advice for the reasons Dheepa outlined, I echo her comments that having one or two applications reviewed may help you drill down on the particular reasons as it's generally likely that your apps will have similar issues across the board.

Wishing you the absolute best of luck.

 

[Naomi U]

Hi @Jacob Miller @Dheepa @Naomi U, thank you for sharing your wisdom on the forum!

I was very fortunate to have attended several ACs in the past few application cycles but have failed at the application stage for 95% of my applications this year. I have attained better grades compared to the previous year and have also gone on to complete a postgraduate degree at a more reputable university. I have also been very fortunate to gain access to career coaching this year. Nonetheless, I am still failing horrendously. I understand that competition in the industry is always fierce but could I ask what could have possibly gone wrong in the process? Thank you in advance .

Hi @Amor_fati

Sorry to chime in so late.

The application stage can be so complex and I know all too well how disheartening it can feel getting a rejection despite feeling like you put so much effort in. That being said, I completely agree with the others here. I definitely would recommend using the application review service as sometimes an objective lens is key to spotting the seemingly minute but significant issues.

Best of luck on your journey!

 

[Naomi U]

Hi @Jacob Miller @Dheepa @Naomi U, thank you for sharing your wisdom on the forum!

I was very fortunate to have attended several ACs in the past few application cycles but have failed at the application stage for 95% of my applications this year. I have attained better grades compared to the previous year and have also gone on to complete a postgraduate degree at a more reputable university. I have also been very fortunate to gain access to career coaching this year. Nonetheless, I am still failing horrendously. I understand that competition in the industry is always fierce but could I ask what could have possibly gone wrong in the process? Thank you in advance .

I did just want to ask, did you apply for the same firms by any chance? If so it might be that they have updated their focus points whether this be their values, the skills or experiences they are looking for. I think it would be worth a try if you haven't already to compare the differences between your past and current applications just to see if there are any key differences or similarities that may be significant.

 

[pbyrne]

Hi all, hope you're well - I'm really struggling with how to approach two questions for the CRS app:
"If you were given the opportunity to change one thing at Charles Russell Speechlys, what would you change and why?"
and "What advice would you give to a friend who wants to set up a business?" I have no idea how to attempt the first one without being at the firm, but the one thing that comes to mind re the legal industry generally is improving diversity, but also don't want to be seen to be criticising. I also have no idea how to approach the business question, so would really appreciate any advice!! Thanks!

 

[Jacob Miller]

Hi all, hope you're well - I'm really struggling with how to approach two questions for the CRS app:
"If you were given the opportunity to change one thing at Charles Russell Speechlys, what would you change and why?"
and "What advice would you give to a friend who wants to set up a business?" I have no idea how to attempt the first one without being at the firm, but the one thing that comes to mind re the legal industry generally is improving diversity, but also don't want to be seen to be criticising. I also have no idea how to approach the business question, so would really appreciate any advice!! Thanks!

Hi,

In re question 1, I would tend to say that you don't need to be at the firm to approach this answer in a meaningful way. There are numerous different angles you could take this: diversifying practice areas, changing client offerings, new offices, diversity drives etc etc. Anything, within reason, is valid here so long as you can back it up with sound reasoning and logic.

For question 2, just think through this logically. What would you do if you were opening up a business? I've launched and operated 3 businesses now since before I started Uni. The first flopped because I didn't adequately understand the market I was breaking into, didn't do enough research, didn't specify my market offering well enough and didn't take proper steps to build a brand. The second and third businesses I've launched, which I'm still involved in as of right now, I didn't make those same mistakes. To that end, I would suggest things like market research, product/ service development pre-launch, continuing to develop offerings post-launch, proper brand-building before launch so you've an established market before you start to ask for people's money.

 

[Dheepa]

Hi all, hope you're well - I'm really struggling with how to approach two questions for the CRS app:
"If you were given the opportunity to change one thing at Charles Russell Speechlys, what would you change and why?"
and "What advice would you give to a friend who wants to set up a business?" I have no idea how to attempt the first one without being at the firm, but the one thing that comes to mind re the legal industry generally is improving diversity, but also don't want to be seen to be criticising. I also have no idea how to approach the business question, so would really appreciate any advice!! Thanks!

There’s been quite a lot of discussion on this question in the forums recently on the first question. I’m gonna link you to some things that have already been said:

So I think there's two ways you can go about this. You can identify one thing the firm already has in place that you'd like to improve or it could be something that the firm lacks that you'd like to introduce. Either approach would work. In terms of what kind of things you can talk about: training, the work at the firm (any areas you think they should focus growth on that would complement existing areas etc), tech investment. Personally I would try to identify who their competitors are and see if there's anything they do that would benefit CRS. I'd look at firms like Withers and Mischon since CRS are predominantly focused on private client work and mid-market M&A.

Hi,
I am applying to CRS and I was thinking about writing about them utilising their social media platforms a bit more. I also spoke to an associate and he said another thing could be changing the perception of the firm since most people associate it with just Private Client work when they have a full-service offering and expertise in other areas like Corporate and Sports.
There's also a post on Instagram by @whatthelawyer that has suggestions on how to answer this question so you can also take a look at that if you want.

Otherwise, diversity is a perfectly acceptable thing to mention however I would encourage you to really substantiate your answer with statistics and also be as specific as possible about what initiatives the firm can introduce to address the issue.

For the second question, that's admittedly a really broad question so personally I'd probably start my answer by saying I'd ask my friend for more context on the business model, it's product and how he intends to generate revenue. I think maybe that would demonstrate that you understand the best kind of advice is tailored business specific advice but maybe only do this if the word count allows it. Some general advice I'd probably offer after that would look at things like:

1. Ensure the product/business has a USP that is not easily replicate/available on the market
2. How will the business ensure customer loyalty? Who is the target market? What are their needs and how does the business fulfil them? I think an increasingly important factor for business is being able to cater to changing consumer demands (think of all the trouble the retail industry is having and the shift from mere stores to providing a shopping experience). Another point you could make here is how environmentally conscious consumers are and how maybe the business should capitalise on this ESG focus.
3. Capital. How will your friend fund the business? A loan or investment from others, i.e. debt or equity. Which would you advise him to choose? Bear in mind that for a small business just starting out the arguments in favour of one or the other change drastically from the information on the internet, although I don't think there is a specific right answer.
4. Having a strong long term business plan. What is the business's target profit, how much would need to be reinvested to develop the efficiency of the business (increasing product offering, increasing distribution capabilities) what is the business's strategic goal? It's hard for businesses to last long if they only have one successful product that they don't try to then expand on/if they don't have a larger vision for the business.

If you have the time I'd encourage you to watch this video by Will Ackman

It's on investing in a business but he actually makes some really good points on what makes a good business to begin with which may be helpful for your question. It's a rather long video though so maybe watch it on double speed haha.

I hope that helps!

 

[Daniel Boden]

There’s been quite a lot of discussion on this question in the forums recently on the first question. I’m gonna link you to some things that have already been said:





Otherwise, diversity is a perfectly acceptable thing to mention however I would encourage you to really substantiate your answer with statistics and also be as specific as possible about what initiatives the firm can introduce to address the issue.

For the second question, that's admittedly a really broad question so personally I'd probably start my answer by saying I'd ask my friend for more context on the business model, it's product and how he intends to generate revenue. I think maybe that would demonstrate that you understand the best kind of advice is tailored business specific advice but maybe only do this if the word count allows it. Some general advice I'd probably offer after that would look at things like:

1. Ensure the product/business has a USP that is not easily replicate/available on the market
2. How will the business ensure customer loyalty? Who is the target market? What are their needs and how does the business fulfil them? I think an increasingly important factor for business is being able to cater to changing consumer demands (think of all the trouble the retail industry is having and the shift from mere stores to providing a shopping experience). Another point you could make here is how environmentally conscious consumers are and how maybe the business should capitalise on this ESG focus.
3. Capital. How will your friend fund the business? A loan or investment from others, i.e. debt or equity. Which would you advise him to choose? Bear in mind that for a small business just starting out the arguments in favour of one or the other change drastically from the information on the internet, although I don't think there is a specific right answer.
4. Having a strong long term business plan. What is the business's target profit, how much would need to be reinvested to develop the efficiency of the business (increasing product offering, increasing distribution capabilities) what is the business's strategic goal? It's hard for businesses to last long if they only have one successful product that they don't try to then expand on/if they don't have a larger vision for the business.

If you have the time I'd encourage you to watch this video by Will Ackman

It's on investing in a business but he actually makes some really good points on what makes a good business to begin with which may be helpful for your question. It's a rather long video though so maybe watch it on double speed haha.

I hope that helps!

That Bill Ackman video is so good! Another one is Ray Dalio: 'How the Economy works' which I'll link here:

 

[DisciplineTC2526]

Hello,

So VS/TC open for penultimate year law students and some penultimate year law students end up securing TCs. What does this mean for final year law? If I move to final year law still without a TC, are my chances destroyed? In short, I am basically enquiring about the possibilities of securing a TC as final year law. For some reason, I think that if you dont secure a TC in penultimate year law, it is game over. Am I wrong?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Hello,

So VS/TC open for penultimate year law students and some penultimate year law students end up securing TCs. What does this mean for final year law? If I move to final year law still without a TC, are my chances destroyed? In short, I am basically enquiring about the possibilities of securing a TC as final year law. For some reason, I think that if you dont secure a TC in penultimate year law, it is game over. Am I wrong?

Very much wrong... lots of people secure TCs way beyond their final year of their undergraduate degree.

 

[Dheepa]

Hello,

So VS/TC open for penultimate year law students and some penultimate year law students end up securing TCs. What does this mean for final year law? If I move to final year law still without a TC, are my chances destroyed? In short, I am basically enquiring about the possibilities of securing a TC as final year law. For some reason, I think that if you dont secure a TC in penultimate year law, it is game over. Am I wrong?

Echoing what Jess has said, there are people that are career changers well into their 30s who secure TCs. It’s absolutely not game over at second year. I myself only got my TC offers in my final year. You’ve got time!

 

[DisciplineTC2526]

@Jessica Booker @Dheepa

Thank you for your responses!

Ok, with that said what are firms that favour penultimate year law? I am aware that CC target penultimate year law.

 

[Jacob Miller]

Sorry for interjecting. If I used to get ACs but have stopped getting any and also did not graduate with a first class degree this year (I am aware that more people have attained better grades), is it over for me?

Definitely not! Many people secure TCs much later than penultimate year and long after graduating

 

[Dheepa]

@Jessica Booker @Dheepa

Thank you for your responses!

Ok, with that said what are firms that favour penultimate year law? I am aware that CC target penultimate year law.

Sorry for interjecting. If I used to get ACs but have stopped getting any and also did not graduate with a first class degree this year (I am aware that more people have attained better grades), is it over for me?

CC is an abnormality. And honestly I don’t think I will ever understand the system no matter how many videos they release to justify it but maybe that’s just me. Otherwise no firm prefers one age group/one graduating year over another. Plenty of graduates apply and secure vacation schemes even when they’re technically geared to penultimate year students!

I’d also like to say that its never over for anyone. Ever. Grades are only one small part of what firms want and as long as you meet the minimum requirements/have mitigating circumstances you’re still a strong candidate. It’s cliche advice but securing a TC is a marathon and not a sprint. There are gonna be some cycles that are tougher than others and there are gonna some people with more rejections and more years of trying than others. This may be an unpopular opinion but, I believe there is a huge amount of luck involved in getting a TC and sometimes some of us have to work for longer than others before that little bit of luck we all need finally swings in our favour. It’s only over if you give up, but if you really want this career and believe it is for you, then nothing can stop you from trying and I really believe you will get there.

 

[Jacob Miller]

CC is an abnormality. And honestly I don’t think I will ever understand the system no matter how many videos they release to justify it but maybe that’s just me. Otherwise no firm prefers one age group/one graduating year over another. Plenty of graduates apply and secure vacation schemes even when they’re technically geared to penultimate year students!

I’d also like to say that its never over for anyone. Ever. Grades are only one small part of what firms want and as long as you meet the minimum requirements/have mitigating circumstances you’re still a strong candidate. It’s cliche advice but securing a TC is a marathon and not a sprint. There are gonna be some cycles that are tougher than others and there are gonna some people with more rejections and more years of trying than others. This may be an unpopular opinion but, I believe there is a huge amount of luck involved in getting a TC and sometimes some of us have to work for longer than others before that little bit of luck we all need finally swings in our favour. It’s only over if you give up, but if you really want this career and believe it is for you, then nothing can stop you from trying and I really believe you will get there.

Can't overemphasise how much I agree with Dheepa's position here. Rejections are horrible, but remember you only need one break to make it!

 

[nina_123]

Hi all!! hope you are well!

I have a vac scheme in July and was just wondering if you had advice on what I should do between now and the vac scheme? I am still in uni so I am occupied with coursework etc. but was just wondering if you did anything to prepare between receiving the vs offer and the actual vac? (e.g. did you do some commercial reading when you could? did you mostly focus on uni work and then prepped a couple weeks before?)

Thanks so much!

 

[Naomi U]

Hi all!! hope you are well!

I have a vac scheme in July and was just wondering if you had advice on what I should do between now and the vac scheme? I am still in uni so I am occupied with coursework etc. but was just wondering if you did anything to prepare between receiving the vs offer and the actual vac? (e.g. did you do some commercial reading when you could? did you mostly focus on uni work and then prepped a couple weeks before?)

Thanks so much!

Hi @nina_123

Congrats on your vac scheme!

I was in a very similar experience to you last year. My approach may differ to others, as to be totally honest once I got my vac schemes I switched my focus entirely to uni. Applications are very hard in themselves and took a huge tole on me mentally and academically so my primary focus was getting these back up again. I think this is very important as arguably, it's all good and well prepping commercially but failing as a result will undermine any gains on that part.

Once my exams were over, I switched back to my "commercial" brain, and started listening to my podcasts again ( my favourites were BBC's Wake Up to Money and a podcast on Spotify called The Commercial Awareness Podcast" by Tapiwa Museba). I also started to prep in terms of my general understanding of law firms, deals and the role of a solicitor- TCLA has some great articles on this and another big help was the Commercial Law Handbook by Jake Schogger. Finally, I would also recommend if you have time perhaps doing a virtual internship- there are some great ones of InsideSherpa, I know the Bright Network also did one last year. This definitely helped again to give me a greater insight as to the types of tasks carried out by a trainee.

To sum all this up, I think you have to be honest with yourself about what you can reasonably handle. If you have time to start prepping now then go for it! But if not, don't feel like you have to start months before in order to be successful.

Hope this helps & best of luck for your summer vac scheme!