General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[TC2020]

Hey! Do you have a link to the Mergers and Acquisitions book you're talking about above?

Hey, I use TCLA Premium for practice questions and answers, as well as general prep for Mergers and Acquisition case studies. I highly recommend! The Commercial Law Handbook by Jake Schogger is also a great read and has a fantastic section on M&A transactions

 

[Aspiring.lawyer.to.be]

Hi Guys,
I know HSF spring vac scheme app doesn't close until 4th dec. I was wondering if the verbal test also closes on 4th dec. Does anyone know how long we get to complete the online test?
Thank you guys.

 

[NikkiT]

Has anybody else had an email from NRF inviting them to apply for a 2023 training contract? My application for a 2022 TC was not reviewed because of the disruption surrounding second-semester grades & covid.
Has anybody been successful in their application to NRF and have any tips? I am in the process of rewriting my cover letter as I feel like it definitely needs improvement!

I received this email too as my application wasn't reviewed because I am a graduate and it was only for penultimate year students I think!

 

[WannabeSolicitor24]

Hi Guys,
I know HSF spring vac scheme app doesn't close until 4th dec. I was wondering if the verbal test also closes on 4th dec. Does anyone know how long we get to complete the online test?
Thank you guys.

It's 7 days from when you receive the test link but I am not sure if it is different when the 7th day is after the deadline. Maybe worth an email to Grad Rec?

 

[Nat000]

Hey just to get a general idea, what firms recruit from direct TC applications? I assume the majority of US firms don’t?

Did a post here you might find useful: https://www.thecorporatelawacademy.com/forum/threads/where-firms-recruit-from-direct-tc-vs.2723/

 

[Fran]

Go by how it is written by the ranking company or on the firms website. Something like this is slightly different to saying “I worked in a team of ten”

Hi @Jessica Booker, I remember you saying in the TCLA event that numbers below ten are written as a number. But I am worried that 'I worked in a team of 8 on a project...' looks a bit sloppy? Could just be me though

 

[tractor12]

Hi @Jessica Booker, I remember you saying in the TCLA event that numbers below ten are written as a number. But I am worried that 'I worked in a team of 8 on a project...' looks a bit sloppy? Could just be me though

I think it’s the opposite - any number over 10 is written as a number

 

[Fran]

I think it’s the opposite - any number over 10 is written as a number

ahhh that makes sense, confused myself there sorry (stupid I know)

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Hi @Jessica Booker, I remember you saying in the TCLA event that numbers below ten are written as a number. But I am worried that 'I worked in a team of 8 on a project...' looks a bit sloppy? Could just be me though

Numbers ten and under are written in word format, so eight would be appropriate here.

Numbers over ten are written as 11, 12, 13 etc

 

[Fran]

Numbers ten and under are written in word format, so eight would be appropriate here.

Numbers over ten are written as 11, 12, 13 etc

Thank you for clarifying!

 

[E.A]

Did grad recruitment give you your score through email?

Yes

 

[Velikilawyer123]

Hi @Jessica Booker, I've been thinking about what you mentioned at the event today - that law firms spend a significant amount of money on training / hiring lawyers, and that they generally don't start making their money back until the lawyer is around 3 PQE. That's quite the investment and it totally makes sense that firms would want to hire only the brightest and most motivated candidates.

But I'm wondering, do you have any information / statistics on whether it all pays off, in the end? Do lawyers have a lower rate of leaving their law firm than professionals in other sectors have of leaving their employers?

I've heard before that 2-3 PQE is peak time for lawyers exiting firms, typically going either to competitors or in-house in a corporation, but I don't have any data on how many former trainees actually stay with the firm long-term, perhaps even making partner.

And kind of in the same vein as this, do you think it's truly the best / most long-term motivated candidates that are successful in securing TCs, or just the ones who have learnt to play the application / interview game the best? We hear constantly, on TCLA and other places, that the application process is a skill you can learn. But if it's something you can learn, how do we know an applicant's story is genuine, and not just "learnt" to be presented in a way most attractive to the interviewer?

Apologies if this seems like a bit of an odd take, but what you said just got me thinking about whether this whole complex recruiting process really produces the best candidates for firms.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Hi @Jessica Booker, I've been thinking about what you mentioned at the event today - that law firms spend a significant amount of money on training / hiring lawyers, and that they generally don't start making their money back until the lawyer is around 3 PQE. That's quite the investment and it totally makes sense that firms would want to hire only the brightest and most motivated candidates.

But I'm wondering, do you have any information / statistics on whether it all pays off, in the end? Do lawyers have a lower rate of leaving their law firm than professionals in other sectors have of leaving their employers?

I've heard before that 2-3 PQE is peak time for lawyers exiting firms, typically going either to competitors or in-house in a corporation, but I don't have any data on how many former trainees actually stay with the firm long-term, perhaps even making partner.

And kind of in the same vein as this, do you think it's truly the best / most long-term motivated candidates that are successful in securing TCs, or just the ones who have learnt to play the application / interview game the best? We hear constantly, on TCLA and other places, that the application process is a skill you can learn. But if it's something you can learn, how do we know an applicant's story is genuine, and not just "learnt" to be presented in a way most attractive to the interviewer?

Apologies if this seems like a bit of an odd take, but what you said just got me thinking about whether this whole complex recruiting process really produces the best candidates for firms.

No stats as such, but it ultimately pays off through several different ways. You need trainees to do a job, you train your own up which helps to retain culture better, and there can be additional costs of trying to hire people at a qualified level anyway.

The average graduate spends less than 15 months in their first job, so clearly firms do manage to keep trainees longer than average anyway, albeit because of the qualification system.

I think recruitment systems are sophisticated enough these days to get the vast majority of people who “learn” the system out of the process. I do think there are some candidates who genuinely think it is right for them and are successful because of that belief, but then quickly realise it isn’t. Jaysen could be one of those! I think there are also a lot of people who by “learning” the process, realise it isn’t the career for them.

 

[Velikilawyer123]

No stats as such, but it ultimately pays off through several different ways. You need trainees to do a job, you train your own up which helps to retain culture better, and there can be additional costs of trying to hire people at a qualified level anyway.

The average graduate spends less than 15 months in their first job, so clearly firms do manage to keep trainees longer than average anyway, albeit because of the qualification system.

I think recruitment systems are sophisticated enough these days to get the vast majority of people who “learn” the system out of the process. I do think there are some candidates who genuinely think it is right for them and are successful because of that belief, but then quickly realise it isn’t. Jaysen could be one of those!

That's very interesting, I didn't know 15 months was the average for a first job. But as you said, the TC itself is a guaranteed 24 months, so it'd be interesting to see how long candidates would stay at their first firm if they went straight to an NQ-type role.

What about all the specificity firms look for when hiring candidates - for instance, I might be truly interested in cross-border work, yet most firms will want me to zoom in on something a bit more specific when justifying my motivation for applying to them, such as their approach to international clients, or secondments, etc., and then link it back to me. But from my perspective, none of that might matter - I just want an internationally recognised firm, and that might be 90% of my motivation, and I'd be roughly equally happy at any firm that offers that. Be it W&C, Dentons, NRF, or whoever else, they all equally fit my criteria. So for each one, I'll find a great story about how their specific approach to internationality appeals to me, I'll link it to my experiences, but ultimately that's all it will be - a story. How has the firm gauged anything from that, other than my ability to write a story?

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

That's very interesting, I didn't know 15 months was the average for a first job. But as you said, the TC itself is a guaranteed 24 months, so it'd be interesting to see how long candidates would stay at their first firm if they went straight to an NQ-type role.

What about all the specificity firms look for when hiring candidates - for instance, I might be truly interested in cross-border work, yet most firms will want me to zoom in on something a bit more specific when justifying my motivation for applying to them, such as their approach to international clients, or secondments, etc., and then link it back to me. But from my perspective, none of that might matter - I just want an internationally recognised firm, and that might be 90% of my motivation, and I'd be roughly equally happy at any firm that offers that. Be it W&C, Dentons, NRF, or whoever else, they all equally fit my criteria. So for each one, I'll find a great story about how their specific approach to internationality appeals to me, I'll link it to my experiences, but ultimately that's all it will be - a story. How has the firm gauged anything from that, other than my ability to write a story?

If it’s 90% of your motivations, that’s enough for the firm. The story isn’t the important part - it’s just the considered part.

 

[Velikilawyer123]

If it’s 90% of your motivations, that’s enough for the firm. The story isn’t the important part - it’s just the considered part.

But didn't we just mention at the event today that simply saying "I'm motivated to join firm X due to its international reach" likely isn't going to cut it because 1) there are many such firms, so why apply to this specific one and 2) many candidates will say that, it doesn't really stand out?

 

[arbitracion]

Got a few rejections today for WVS, feeling so pessimistic this application cycle. just so lost and feel like I'm getting rejected every corner

 

[Shirshe]

@Jessica Booker When a firm asks what "qualities" I possess that would make me a good trainee there, am I right in thinking that's not the same as the "skills" I posses to make a good trainee there? I view qualities as a bit more, I'm sure how to put it, inherent? Kind of like something I was born with, or at least had the capability to develop? Like I'd say my quality is if I'm attentive to detail, or communicative, or a natural team player. My skills, on the other hand, might be the ability to combine law with commercial considerations, or my ability to work under pressure.

Though now as I say / write it, they actually look much more similar than I thought... I'd appreciate any advice on this!

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

@Jessica Booker When a firm asks what "qualities" I possess that would make me a good trainee there, am I right in thinking that's not the same as the "skills" I posses to make a good trainee there? I view qualities as a bit more, I'm sure how to put it, inherent? Kind of like something I was born with, or at least had the capability to develop? Like I'd say my quality is if I'm attentive to detail, or communicative, or a natural team player. My skills, on the other hand, might be the ability to combine law with commercial considerations, or my ability to work under pressure.

Though now as I say / write it, they actually look much more similar than I thought... I'd appreciate any advice on this!

Yes, I’d agree with that. It’s not necessarily something you were born with but more your defaults - what strengths/characteristics you tend to rely on, rather than the processes you have acquired along the way that you are good at. There will be cross over though - you could say you were resilient and that might help you work well under pressure (for example).

 

[PP27]

For NRF, would you talk about open days/encounters with the firm in the work experience section? There are only 4 opportunities to write 250 words, then you have to write the rest of your work experience in 200 words