TCLA Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion Thread 2021-22 (#1)

[James Carrabino]

Thank you for this it is really helpful. Yes, that is why as I want to make a really good application with no grammar errors rather than a rushed application because it is rolling.

January 10th is a long time away in my opinion! When I was applying, I would be debating whether to start an application for a firm that was due at midnight tonight 🤣 (I would not quite recommend this lol but some of those did get to the next stage)

 

[James Carrabino]

I have completed a number of application forms in the past but I wanted to see whether I could gain any insight into how far back you should date your work experience. In prior applications, I would include work from as early as 2015 but on reflection, I think this may be too far back. Please could someone kindly shed some light on this? Many thanks in advance!

I personally would include all of my work experience, depending on what it is. If it was a part-time volunteering role when you were 14 then perhaps you do not need to, but I would think that you should include your entire professional experience. I could be wrong about this so I will tag @Jessica Booker for her opinion!

 

[James Carrabino]

̷I̷ ̷t̷h̷i̷n̷k̷ ̷y̷o̷u̷'̷v̷e̷ ̷a̷n̷s̷w̷e̷r̷e̷d̷ ̷y̷o̷u̷r̷ ̷o̷w̷n̷ ̷q̷u̷e̷s̷t̷i̷o̷n̷.̷̷. I̷'̷d̷ ̷s̷a̷y̷ ̷r̷e̷a̷l̷i̷s̷t̷i̷c̷a̷l̷l̷y̷ ̷s̷p̷e̷a̷k̷i̷n̷g̷,̷ ̷y̷o̷u̷'̷d̷ ̷b̷e̷ ̷m̷o̷s̷t̷ ̷a̷d̷v̷a̷n̷t̷a̷g̷e̷d̷ ̷a̷p̷p̷l̷y̷i̷n̷g̷ ̷o̷n̷ ̷d̷a̷y̷ ̷1̷ ̷w̷h̷e̷n̷ ̷a̷p̷p̷l̷i̷c̷a̷t̷i̷o̷n̷s̷ ̷o̷p̷e̷n̷.̷ ̷W̷i̷t̷h̷ ̷r̷o̷l̷l̷i̷n̷g̷ ̷a̷p̷p̷l̷i̷c̷a̷t̷i̷o̷n̷s̷,̷ ̷t̷h̷i̷s̷ ̷a̷d̷v̷a̷n̷t̷a̷g̷e̷ ̷r̷e̷d̷u̷c̷e̷s̷ ̷w̷i̷t̷h̷ ̷t̷i̷m̷e̷,̷ ̷u̷n̷d̷e̷r̷ ̷t̷h̷e̷ ̷a̷s̷s̷u̷m̷p̷t̷i̷o̷n̷ ̷t̷h̷a̷t̷ ̷a̷p̷p̷l̷i̷c̷a̷t̷i̷o̷n̷s̷ ̷b̷e̷i̷n̷g̷ ̷s̷u̷b̷m̷i̷t̷t̷e̷d̷ ̷a̷r̷e̷ ̷o̷f̷ ̷a̷ ̷c̷e̷r̷t̷a̷i̷n̷ ̷s̷t̷a̷n̷d̷a̷r̷d̷.̷

I've struck off my reply based on information from Gemma's response below. My apologies.

No worries at all @danieljonesqb. All of us, including @Jaysen himself (sorry boss) have given incorrect advice on the forum before based on the best information we have at the time. Acknowledging our errors and correcting them is the most admirable thing a TCLA member can do!

 

[John Travoni]

Early October

Guess I’m not gonna hear back anytime soon bc I only submitted last week 😂

 

[IRO]

January 10th is a long time away in my opinion! When I was applying, I would be debating whether to start an application for a firm that was due at midnight tonight 🤣 (I would not quite recommend this lol but some of those did get to the next stage)

Wow! It’s impressive you managed to turn in decent, well researched apps in such a short time frame! How did you manage it, and how many apps do you think you ended making in total?

 

[LawfulRust00]

I applied for a TC at Bakers in April this year and I wish to apply for a Summer VS within the next month, is this a long enough gap? Thanks!

 

[James Carrabino]

Hi @Anoned Not at all. It would make a mockery of the entire application process if you applied advantage/disadvantage to candidates on the basis of the date they applied. As long as an application is made within the application window, it's considered fully no matter the date it comes in. I think that the reason often candidates see more unsuccessful applications nearer the end of an application window is that, sometimes, applications can (not always!) be made in a bit of a rush and that comes through when I'm reading them.

Also, just as an aside, we review on a rolling basis, rather than recruit (I've amended our wording on our website to reflect this but not the brochure).

Thank you so much for this clarification @WillkieGemma; it is excellent for all TCLA members to see this!

The only other reason I can think of as to why there may be more unsuccessful applications towards the end of Willkie's application window is that people apply to their first-choice firms (and by extension the firms they are better suited for) early in the cycle.


The reason I think candidates sometimes assume they will be disadvantaged if they apply later is that there will be less room available to progress if other candidates have already progressed. For a firm like Willkie that does not hold its interviews/ACs until after the application deadline, however, I cannot see why a candidate would be disadvantaged by applying later. Even for firms which have a strict limit on how many Training Contract offers they can make, there is not going to be a strict limit on the number of people they can progress to a psychometric test, video interview or assessment centre.

Firms know the standard that they are expecting at each stage of the process and they will progress everyone who meets their standard - they will not start raising the benchmark towards the end of an application window.

There are some firms that do hold interviews whilst their application window is still open. Even then, most of those firms will leave space to conceivably interview everyone who applies. There are only a few firms I have come across who wrap up their ACs by a pre-determined date and tell candidates that they no longer have interview spaces available.

I sincerely believe that for the majority of firms which recruit on a rolling basis, it will not make a difference whether you apply on the application deadline or three months in advance.

 

[futuretraineecity]

I applied for a TC at Bakers in April this year and I wish to apply for a Summer VS within the next month, is this a long enough gap? Thanks!

Hi, I’m 99% sure this is fine! I applied to Bakers for a TC in June/July a couple of years ago and then applied for the VS in October. The application cycle for the firm ends in August time and starts again in October.

 

[Commerciallaw]

Thank you so much for this clarification @WillkieGemma; it is excellent for all TCLA members to see this!

The only other reason I can think of as to why there may be more unsuccessful applications towards the end of Willkie's application window is that people apply to their first-choice firms (and by extension the firms they are better suited for) early in the cycle.


The reason I think candidates sometimes assume they will be disadvantaged if they apply later is that there will be less room available to progress if other candidates have already progressed. For a firm like Willkie that does not hold its interviews/ACs until after the application deadline, however, I cannot see why a candidate would be disadvantaged by applying later. Even for firms which have a strict limit on how many Training Contract offers they can make, there is not going to be a strict limit on the number of people they can progress to a psychometric test, video interview or assessment centre.

Firms know the standard that they are expecting at each stage of the process and they will progress everyone who meets their standard - they will not start raising the benchmark towards the end of an application window.

There are some firms that do hold interviews whilst their application window is still open. Even then, most of those firms will leave space to conceivably interview everyone who applies. There are only a few firms I have come across who wrap up their ACs by a pre-determined date and tell candidates that they no longer have interview spaces available.

I sincerely believe that for the majority of firms which recruit on a rolling basis, it will not make a difference whether you apply on the application deadline or three months in advance.

Hi James. If you would not mind, could you please share which firms finish all their AC's by a specific date?

 

[James Carrabino]

Wow! It’s impressive you managed to turn in decent, well researched apps in such a short time frame! How did you manage it, and how many apps do you think you ended making in total?

I ended up applying to 40 firms, around 25 of which I applied to in the month of January alone! Again, I do not recommend this approach as it was very tiring (I had little guidance at the time and this is the reason why I am so excited to be able to help TCLA members so that they do not make the same mistakes) but I think that you can work out how to efficiently conduct research and write an application answer such that you do not need to overthink every application.

Writing high-quality applications is important, but only up to a certain extent. There are diminishing marginal returns on the amount of time you put into each app. The only thing I would absolutely ensure you do is allow yourself a full hour to proofread everything before you submit. Silly errors like typos can sometimes lead to rejection (not all the time, but it is easy to do a really thorough proofread so just leave yourself the time to do it).

By the way, there are not many firms I would leave myself three hours to apply to 🤣 I think that I could probably have applied to some firms (such as Reed Smith, Clifford Chance, Linklaters or DLA Piper off the top of my head) in several hours as their application forms did not require firm-specific research and I had written many of the same commercial or motivational answers in previous applications. Usually I think a full day's work was enough for me to prepare and submit an average-length application. Some applications definitely took a lot more than that, but here was my average time spent at each stage of the application writing process:


I would spend 1-2 hours thoroughly searching the website and making bullet points of partners who have done interesting work, deals that I would like to have been involved with and more general opportunities which the firm affords trainees. It was a very formulaic process for me after I had done it a few times - when I finished my research I would then be able to use my bullet points to write out a good answer in 45 minutes or so. I would then come back to it at the end of the day (in the meantime I would write the answers to the other questions which would usually just involve editing or tailoring an answer I’d written for another firm) at which point I would change anything that did not sound right or add anything else I had thought of. I would say that for the average application I would spend a total of 3.5 - 4 hours on the firm-specific question, 2 hours on the other questions in total (assuming that you have to alter the word count to a pre-prepared answer or have to edit it to better answer the specific wording of the question at hand) leaving at least 1 hour to proofread. 6-7 hours of work is not too bad and it will often be less (for example, you may be able to literally copy and paste your other answers from another application if it is the exact same question and word count). It will sometimes be more if there are multiple firm-specific questions or a random question (for one firm I had to write about which historical event I would have liked to witness).

Basically once you have done all this I would give it a solid proofread, perhaps have a fresh pair of eyes check it over for typos as well and then click ‘send’. There is no need to agonise over whether you could have written a better sentence here or there - it really won’t make a difference. I found that there was little correlation between whether my application was successful and the amount of time I spent on the application beyond the 6-7 hours I needed to do a proper job of it.

This may not work for everyone and by all means spend longer on applications for your favourite firms, but I hope that this is a useful perspective for those of you who may have thought that you need to spend days or weeks tailoring your applications!

 

[James Carrabino]

Hi James. If you would not mind, could you please share which firms finish all their AC's by a specific date?

I would need to look into this for you - I remember on TCLA seeing people posting images of e-mails from firms saying that they had strong applications but no AC spots left, but this was really only for 2 or 3 firms. If I work out which firms do this I will let you know!

 

[Asil Ahmad]

January 10th is a long time away in my opinion! When I was applying, I would be debating whether to start an application for a firm that was due at midnight tonight 🤣 (I would not quite recommend this lol but some of those did get to the next stage)

Thank you very much for this. This is really helpful and insightful. Will keep that in mind.

 

[Jessica Booker]

I personally would include all of my work experience, depending on what it is. If it was a part-time volunteering role when you were 14 then perhaps you do not need to, but I would think that you should include your entire professional experience. I could be wrong about this so I will tag @Jessica Booker for her opinion!

Yes, I agree that you should include as much as possible even if it dates back considerably, @Nicole15 .

My advice is:

- Does it show something different about you - then include it
- Does it show you managed your time effectively with other commitments (especially your school/college studies) - then include it
- If you committed to it for a long time - then include it
- If it was something outside of the ordinary (e.g. maybe working abroad or a really unique role, especially if done when you were "young") - then include it

When to consider not including it:
- If it was a very short period of time
- If it has been superseded by other, more modern experiences that are very similar

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi James. If you would not mind, could you please share which firms finish all their AC's by a specific date?

I very much doubt firms will provide this information unfortunately. It is something that even when you plan for fixed dates, they often change anyway, especially in these times when things are so uncertain.

I really wouldn't worry about when their ACs are though - it is nothing you can control or influence.

@James Carrabino - tagging you in as a FYI

 

[James Carrabino]

Hi everyone - I have just updated my Weekly Application Pitfalls thread for weeks 3-4 of December! Please view it here

My advice this week on things to watch out for is slightly lengthier than previous weeks and I invite you to take some time to cogitate on my suggestions in advance of the numerous January application deadlines. Please feel free to respond to the thread with any queries you may have.

TCLA's application review service is closed next week for Christmas. As a result, I will not be reviewing applications next week and so this post is meant to cover two weeks' worth of application pitfalls (I have been doing extra reviews this past week). I hope it serves as some useful food for thought over the coming weeks!

I will be back to the thread in the first week of January; in the meantime have a wonderful Christmas!

 

[Jessica Booker]

I sincerely believe that for the majority of firms which recruit on a rolling basis, it will not make a difference whether you apply on the application deadline or three months in advance.

To me, the indirect benefits of applying earlier are:

- You potentially have more choice of interview/assessment dates - good if you are busy with other commitments or other recruitment processes
- You get to spread out the "stress" and "effort" needed, which is probably better than having a peak of it when most applications close
- You might get an offer earlier (good in certain circumstances, like if you get multiple offers)

Standards won't be different in the earlier or later stages of an application window. You either meet the criteria or you don't and that will be consistent whether you apply on the first or last day of an application window.

 

[CorporateLaw101]

Anyone know if the ‘preparation’ time given in VIs is recorded? Made an absolute fool of myself during the reed smith 60 second preparation and hoping that it’s not! If it is then I will know why when I am PFOd 😆😆

 

[James Carrabino]

Anyone know if the ‘preparation’ time given in VIs is recorded? Made an absolute fool of myself during the reed smith 60 second preparation and hoping that it’s not! If it is then I will know why when I am PFOd 😆😆

It is not - don't worry!

 

[bibss]

I ended up applying to 40 firms, around 25 of which I applied to in the month of January alone! Again, I do not recommend this approach as it was very tiring (I had little guidance at the time and this is the reason why I am so excited to be able to help TCLA members so that they do not make the same mistakes) but I think that you can work out how to efficiently conduct research and write an application answer such that you do not need to overthink every application.

Writing high-quality applications is important, but only up to a certain extent. There are diminishing marginal returns on the amount of time you put into each app. The only thing I would absolutely ensure you do is allow yourself a full hour to proofread everything before you submit. Silly errors like typos can sometimes lead to rejection (not all the time, but it is easy to do a really thorough proofread so just leave yourself the time to do it).

By the way, there are not many firms I would leave myself three hours to apply to 🤣 I think that I could probably have applied to some firms (such as Reed Smith, Clifford Chance, Linklaters or DLA Piper off the top of my head) in several hours as their application forms did not require firm-specific research and I had written many of the same commercial or motivational answers in previous applications. Usually I think a full day's work was enough for me to prepare and submit an average-length application. Some applications definitely took a lot more than that, but here was my average time spent at each stage of the application writing process:


I would spend 1-2 hours thoroughly searching the website and making bullet points of partners who have done interesting work, deals that I would like to have been involved with and more general opportunities which the firm affords trainees. It was a very formulaic process for me after I had done it a few times - when I finished my research I would then be able to use my bullet points to write out a good answer in 45 minutes or so. I would then come back to it at the end of the day (in the meantime I would write the answers to the other questions which would usually just involve editing or tailoring an answer I’d written for another firm) at which point I would change anything that did not sound right or add anything else I had thought of. I would say that for the average application I would spend a total of 3.5 - 4 hours on the firm-specific question, 2 hours on the other questions in total (assuming that you have to alter the word count to a pre-prepared answer or have to edit it to better answer the specific wording of the question at hand) leaving at least 1 hour to proofread. 6-7 hours of work is not too bad and it will often be less (for example, you may be able to literally copy and paste your other answers from another application if it is the exact same question and word count). It will sometimes be more if there are multiple firm-specific questions or a random question (for one firm I had to write about which historical event I would have liked to witness).

Basically once you have done all this I would give it a solid proofread, perhaps have a fresh pair of eyes check it over for typos as well and then click ‘send’. There is no need to agonise over whether you could have written a better sentence here or there - it really won’t make a difference. I found that there was little correlation between whether my application was successful and the amount of time I spent on the application beyond the 6-7 hours I needed to do a proper job of it.

This may not work for everyone and by all means spend longer on applications for your favourite firms, but I hope that this is a useful perspective for those of you who may have thought that you need to spend days or weeks tailoring your applications!

This is really useful stuff!! Thank you 😊😍

 

[CorporateLaw101]

It is not - don't worry!

Hallelujah!