General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[Evelina]

Need some advice about applications. I have made a few winter vac scheme apps but if i were to get more than one offer they overlap so I could only accept one. Although unlikely, if this happens, do you think I could then defer one to another scheme e.g spring / summer?

i know some people who were able to defer offers but you will have to talk to the specific firm. im sure some will probably say its now or never.

 

[JohanGRK]

I must admit that I enjoyed the direction this thread took. Not many threads like it on TCLA!

Going back to the core issue, I think that it's well worth hitting up the law firm if you're getting rejected so soon and without a clear reason as to why this may possibly be the case (e.g. them filling up ACs, not meeting minimum criteria, typos or blank answers, 2.2s, etc). I've personally seen grad rec and the systems they use mess up too many times for me to put any faith in these sort of decisions.

I had been rejected from HSF on the basis of not doing their online assessment when it turned out that I had done it and they simply hadn't received the results. Linklaters cut me off and then decided to pass me for their WG. A bunch of firms have failed to send me links to tests or VIs in time for me to complete them. I've also had problems with my foreign qualifications despite the British Council issuing an equivalence notice about them. One SC firm auto-rejected me because they thought that my UCAS tarif of 200-something under the new system failed to meet their minimum requirement of 340 under the old one.

Lest you think I'm venting, the point is that the process is set up and maintained by humans, and that mistakes can occur. If I faced the circumstances faced by the users who got rejected by NRF and had nothing to lose (e.g. because I wasn't planning on reapplying there), I'd be hitting up grad rec asap. Obviously, there's no point in asking for an explanation for a 'regular' rejection that comes after a few weeks when your application has actually been read.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

There’s not many threads like it, because it’s not TSR. Thankfully.

Hundreds of thousands of applications are rejected with no clear reason each year. Human error happens on both the candidate and recruiter side, and in most cases it is candidate error unfortunately (even many of the above examples).

Just because you got rejected earlier than someone else actually means very little from my experience. Obviously people are welcome to ask/check though.

 

[whisperingrock]

There’s not many threads like it, because it’s not TSR. Thankfully.

Hundreds of thousands of applications are rejected with no clear reason each year. Human error happens on both the candidate and recruiter side, and in most cases it is candidate error unfortunately (even many of the above examples).

Just because you got rejected earlier than someone else actually means very little from my experience. Obviously people are welcome to ask/check though.

Its quite telling that you feel the need to really dig in that candidates are the ones making the mistakes rather than grad rec. I understand that you have probably seen many applications with errors and gotten emails asking about rejections that likely annoyed you, but this response almost reads as derision to candidates who struggle through a largely opaque process and have faced issues that weren't of their own making.

The only reason this forum needs to exists is because of the limited transparency in legal recruiting, and while I am grateful that you are willing to offer advice and answer questions, I don't see how that means that graduate recruitment should be insulated from even an implication that they are fallible.

 

[JohanGRK]

There’s not many threads like it, because it’s not TSR. Thankfully.

Hundreds of thousands of applications are rejected with no clear reason each year. Human error happens on both the candidate and recruiter side, and in most cases it is candidate error unfortunately (even many of the above examples).

Just because you got rejected earlier than someone else actually means very little from my experience. Obviously people are welcome to ask/check though.

I agree with the second and third paras, but they didn't correspond to my experience (I can't speak to Rhiannon or whisperingrock!). My point was that the firms in my examples were clearly the ones that had messed up and admitted to doing so. If it has happened to me as often as it has, there's good reason to think that there is at least a possibility that an error on grad rec's side has occurred. It may turn out not to be so, but I would still follow up either way.

From what I can tell from the posts, the rejections were within 24h of the app being sent, so this isn't one of those cases where people try to microanalyse the timing of a rejection several weeks in. I hate the latter. It's why I never bothered going on the VS/TC threads on TSR when I was applying.

 

[Deleted member 4851]

Hi all, I am applying for winter vac schemes but I am still no sure how it will work out in case I hopefully get one as I am working afternoons and evenings as well. Can anyone, who has had a virtual vac scheme, share some details about their programme in terms of hours? Did you normally worked 9-5 for example or were your days pretty much packed with something happening 9-9? Thank you

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

I agree with the second and third paras, but they didn't correspond to my experience (I can't speak to Rhiannon or whisperingrock!). My point was that the firms in my examples were clearly the ones that had messed up and admitted to doing so. If it has happened to me as often as it has, there's good reason to think that there is at least a possibility that an error on grad rec's side has occurred. It may turn out not to be so, but I would still follow up either way.

From what I can tell from the posts, the rejections were within 24h of the app being sent, so this isn't one of those cases where people try to microanalyse the timing of a rejection several weeks in. I hate the latter. It's why I never bothered going on the VS/TC threads on TSR when I was applying.

Some of your experiences may not have been the firm’s error. The change is benchmark is actually more common than you think, the lack of links could have been down to your email provider rather than a lack of correspondence from the firm. The only one that clearly is an error in the firm’s part is the move to the old/new UCAS tariff.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Its quite telling that you feel the need to really dig in that candidates are the ones making the mistakes rather than grad rec. I understand that you have probably seen many applications with errors and gotten emails asking about rejections that likely annoyed you, but this response almost reads as derision to candidates who struggle through a largely opaque process and have faced issues that weren't of their own making.

The only reason this forum needs to exists is because of the limited transparency in legal recruiting, and while I am grateful that you are willing to offer advice and answer questions, I don't see how that means that graduate recruitment should be insulated from even an implication that they are fallible.

I am not sure how you have come to the conclusion. Obviously graduate recruitment are fallible - plenty of my previous posts have highlighted this.

I can only go by my experience and explain that in more cases than not, there was no error, just a decision had been made on an application.

Queries never annoyed me though - it was always part of the job. In fact, I used to ensure it was something where more effort and timely responses were considered from a KPI perspective.

I did used to get annoyed by rudeness though, and clearly still do.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Hi all, I am applying for winter vac schemes but I am still no sure how it will work out in case I hopefully get one as I am working afternoons and evenings as well. Can anyone, who has had a virtual vac scheme, share some details about their programme in terms of hours? Did you normally worked 9-5 for example or were your days pretty much packed with something happening 9-9? Thank you

Can you not take time off work/annual leave? Or could you swap your shifts to the following week?

I wouldn’t recommend working the week of a vacation scheme, even if it is virtual. Zoom fatigue + a strong learning curve will mean its particularly tricky week. I would expect you to have work/training sessions/seminars between 9.30-5.30 and you may also find you are picking up work during the day that needs to be completed (or you want to complete of your own accord) outside of office hours.

 

[whisperingrock]

I am not sure how you have come to the conclusion. Obviously graduate recruitment are fallible - plenty of my previous posts have highlighted this.

I can only go by my experience and explain that in more cases than not, there was no error, just a decision had been made on an application.

Queries never annoyed me though - it was always part of the job. In fact, I used to ensure it was something where more effort and timely responses were considered from a KPI perspective.

I did used to get annoyed by rudeness though, and clearly still do.

Less than 10 minutes ago you decided to correct someone who said that the firms admitted to the issues being their error, not the candidates. You took the time to explain that no, their lived experience is actually wrong and it wasn't down to the firm. Either you think that Johan is lying or the firm was lying to them. Every comment where you acknowledge grad rec can make mistakes is caveated in some way.

You may be annoyed by rudeness but I am annoyed by discrimination by grad rec (which the firm admitted to), failures to email me assessments and information (which grad rec admitted to), systems which don't respond and crash, and waiting over 4 months for even a rejection email in some cases. And I'm even more annoyed that stating anything negative and pointing out that you ignored someone who had asked if they should bother following up when it turned out you were wrong about them not qualifying for the scheme, is somehow an indictment against my character.

 

[Deleted member 4851]

Can you not take time off work/annual leave? Or could you swap your shifts to the following week?

I wouldn’t recommend working the week of a vacation scheme, even if it is virtual. Zoom fatigue + a strong learning curve will mean its particularly tricky week. I would expect you to have work/training sessions/seminars between 9.30-5.30 and you may also find you are picking up work during the day that needs to be completed (or you want to complete of your own accord) outside of office hours.

Thank you for your response!

I am working in hospitality and I will not be allowed to take time off in December (well
unless there is a second lockdown in my area). Hopefully if I manage to secure a vac scheme, I can still do evening and weekend shifts or in worse case scenario I will have to leave the job.

 

[CalibreX1]

Does anyone know who to address the NRF cover letter to? Not sure whether to go with Dear Sir/Madam or Dear Graduate Recruitment Team? Can't find a specific person listed anywhere.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Less than 10 minutes ago you decided to correct someone who said that the firms admitted to the issues being their error, not the candidates. You took the time to explain that no, their lived experience is actually wrong and it wasn't down to the firm. Either you think that Johan is lying or the firm was lying to them. Every comment where you acknowledge grad rec can make mistakes is caveated in some way.

You may be annoyed by rudeness but I am annoyed by discrimination by grad rec (which the firm admitted to), failures to email me assessments and information (which grad rec admitted to), systems which don't respond and crash, and waiting over 4 months for even a rejection email in some cases. And I'm even more annoyed that stating anything negative and pointing out that you ignored someone who had asked if they should bother following up when it turned out you were wrong about them not qualifying for the scheme, is somehow an indictment against my character.

You are reading what you want to into my posts. All I did was explain how a candidate’s perception of something might not actually be the reality. There’s a lot of reason to why things happen as they do. As you have suggested, a candidate just can’t see them directly and clearly.

I didn’t mean to ignore the post (although I don’t think you can claim not responding between 9pm on a Friday night and 11.00am on a Saturday as “ignoring”). I get huge amounts of notifications on this platform daily. I am the most active person on this forum by some considerable amount. Tracking who I have and haven’t responded to isn’t an easy task. And it was the weekend!

So I am fallible - I am allowed to miss posts and take time off from this forum. Your criticism of me for doing so, makes this conversation even more ironic.

 

[futuretraineecity]

Does anyone know who to address the NRF cover letter to? Not sure whether to go with Dear Sir/Madam or Dear Graduate Recruitment Team? Can't find a specific person listed anywhere.

hey, last year I addressed it to Graduate Recruitment Team and progressed to WG

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

Thank you for your response!

I am working in hospitality and I will not be allowed to take time off in December (well
unless there is a second lockdown in my area). Hopefully if I manage to secure a vac scheme, I can still do evening and weekend shifts or in worse case scenario I will have to leave the job.

I’d try to pull any favours you can to switch shifts around. I’d really advise not working - you really want to make the most of the scheme and have the most focus/energy for it. I understand it isn’t always as simple as that though.

 

[DrowninginSQE]

Does anyone know when HSF and Linklaters hold ACs for winter vac schemes?

Also, this year I took a hyper organised approach to my applications where I had them all ready and got them sent off in the first few days. But now I’m anxiously waiting back with nothing to do in terms of applications and really feel like I need to be doing something! Anyone else in the same boat or is it just me who is flapping around checking portals too much?

 

[DrowninginSQE]

Thank you for your response!

I am working in hospitality and I will not be allowed to take time off in December (well
unless there is a second lockdown in my area). Hopefully if I manage to secure a vac scheme, I can still do evening and weekend shifts or in worse case scenario I will have to leave the job.

Hey, I did a vacation scheme during the summer and while there weren’t as many sessions as I thought there would be, it was definitely difficult because they gave a lot of independent work to do which took up a lot of time in the evenings and early mornings and they also expected us to reach out to people for virtual coffees. They also scheduled two socials in one week and while attendance wasn’t mandatory, if you weren’t present the trainees would note it down which reflects badly. I know that it doesn’t help your situation but I really hope that helps you to make a decision!

 

[Legal_rawn]

Does anyone know when HSF and Linklaters hold ACs for winter vac schemes?

Also, this year I took a hyper organised approach to my applications where I had them all ready and got them sent off in the first few days. But now I’m anxiously waiting back with nothing to do in terms of applications and really feel like I need to be doing something! Anyone else in the same boat or is it just me who is flapping around checking portals too much?

Last year I got invited to the links AC on the 1st of November and they had a similar deadline for the winter VS and then the AC was something like 2 weeks after that. I’d give it a couple of weeks before checking the portal everyday but I totally feel you the wait is horrible

 

[DrowninginSQE]

Thank you for your response!

I am working in hospitality and I will not be allowed to take time off in December (well
unless there is a second lockdown in my area). Hopefully if I manage to secure a vac scheme, I can still do evening and weekend shifts or in worse case scenario I will have to leave the job.

Also, if you ask grad rec then some law firms will let you do the final interview on the last day of your vac scheme, rather than in the following weeks so that you aren’t having to take more days off for 20 minute interviews.

 

[Jaysen]

Less than 10 minutes ago you decided to correct someone who said that the firms admitted to the issues being their error, not the candidates. You took the time to explain that no, their lived experience is actually wrong and it wasn't down to the firm. Either you think that Johan is lying or the firm was lying to them. Every comment where you acknowledge grad rec can make mistakes is caveated in some way.

You may be annoyed by rudeness but I am annoyed by discrimination by grad rec (which the firm admitted to), failures to email me assessments and information (which grad rec admitted to), systems which don't respond and crash, and waiting over 4 months for even a rejection email in some cases. And I'm even more annoyed that stating anything negative and pointing out that you ignored someone who had asked if they should bother following up when it turned out you were wrong about them not qualifying for the scheme, is somehow an indictment against my character.

You started this by being annoyed by Jess because she hadn’t responded to someone’s query over a Friday night. That’s just petty and unreasonable.

Whatever issues you’ve had in the past, I feel you’re coming into this forum with a big chip on your shoulder. It’s absolutely fine to be upset and of course graduate recruitment make mistakes, but there’s no need to be rude or take this out on the TCLA team.