TCLA Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion Thread 2023-24

[lonelycruise]

I am not diminishing anyone’s hard work. By the way I connected with them on LinkedIn, so it wasn’t an off-hand comment.

No one is diminishing anyone’s hard work, but why do I have to get a lot of work experiences and make my CV unique to get to AC while someone else shows up with society experience only?

Yes needs more nuance probably. But that doesn’t mean that everything is perfectly fair and fine in the recruitment process.

I, for example, don't have even a quarter of my work experience on LinkedIn. It's too speculative a criticism to make, and I'd trust that GR know who's appropriate to process through a recruitment stage. (Even if I am eternally salty when I get PFOd).

I 100% agree that the lack of diversity is deeply unfair and troubling, but society experience is just as valid a way to show transferable skills -- even if your work experience is likely more impressive.

I think there's two arguments being conflated here: Oxbridge dominance and DEI. Both need to be tackled, but in different ways (even if there's invariable overlap). Anyway, don't want to clog up the thread -- I respect your pov!

 

[mfuturetrainee]

aaaanyway, not to poop the party but jus wanted some thoughts from people if zip law+ is worth it or not? is it useful?

 

[Sharon Wu]

Of course there will always be Oxbridge representation in law firms. That in itself is needed for the same reason that recruiting beyond Oxbridge is important.

Maybe every organisation “needs” ED&I for one reason or another. Some may not agree with that statement and I am obviously biased as it has been a key part of my career for the last 16 years, but I can’t see any organisation not needing it on some level to keep their organisations running successfully.

Law firm’s diversity is improving, so the concept of one in one out isn’t the reality either. The data says otherwise. Yes, there are still areas for improvement - particularly retention of certain ethnic minorities and women when they gain caring responsibilities. But the sector is getting more diverse, so it is working, albeit not consistently or throughly enough (IMO).

I have never said organisations do not need it
I'm stating that there is alot of lip service
Alot of DEI professionalls have confirmed this
Alot of diverse lawyers have spoken about many partners not seeing the need for diversity at all
So its there, everyone knows it

The original author was stating his experience
This is also an experience as a diverse candidate that I share

Thank you for realising that you may be bias
The fact is, we live it... You dont...

We can agree to disagree

 

[Seven]

aaaanyway, not to poop the party but jus wanted some thoughts from people if zip law+ is worth it or not? is it useful?

I’ve found it helpful with their commercial awareness blogs/articles, makes it very simple for the reader and links it back to how they relate to law firms. I’ve not used their deals tracker much, as I usually do research on deals with firms myself and find that there is more information online, but ziplaw do know how to make it more digestible for students tbh.

 

[mfuturetrainee]

I’ve found it helpful with their commercial awareness blogs/articles, makes it very simple for the reader and links it back to how they relate to law firms. I’ve not used their deals tracker much, as I usually do research on deals with firms myself and find that there is more information online, but ziplaw do know how to make it more digestible for students tbh.

thank you so much!!

 

[Jessica Booker]

I have never said organisations do not need it
I'm stating that there is alot of lip service
Alot of DEI professionalls have confirmed this
Alot of diverse lawyers have spoken about many partners not seeing the need for diversity at all
So its there, everyone knows it

The original author was stating his experience
This is also an experience as a diverse candidate that I share

Thank you for realising that you may be bias
The fact is, we live it... You dont...

But you did ask when will they get to the point that they don’t need it. I don’t think that will ever happen - ED&I is something that will constantly be evolving as demographics of organisation change.

Please don’t make the assumption that I don’t have or have not had lived experience. There is no need to make this personal.

 

[Marissa]

Can anyone who is still at SST stage for Mayer Brown give this post a like?

I applied on 1 Oct (literally on the day the VS opened), did the SST on 20 Oct, and haven’t heard a peep since the so assuming a PFO atp.

 

[Kodak123]

But there are many working class, non-Eton-educated Oxbridge students?

Also, how do you know what's on their CV? What a candidate reveals to you in an off-hand comment does not relate to their worthiness and validity to attend an AC.

I think, instead of somewhat diminishing the hard work invested by our peers, there are other ways to promote diversity.

I entirely respect your pov, but still think the conversation needs nuance.

100% agree with this. As an oxbridge grad from a working class background , I can assure you that it is not as easy as just being from “Oxbridge” more nuance is 100% needed

 

[EqualityNonNegotiable]

This conversation has reinforced the validity of my approach of only applying to law firms I think I would already fit in. Whilst I understand the importance of self-development, changing who you are in order to fit in does not seem worth the reward. It would be too suffocating in the long run anyway.

I'd say don't chase the money guys, find the firm/area of law that truly interests you and the money will follow as a byproduct of your passion

 

[S87]

aaaanyway, not to poop the party but jus wanted some thoughts from people if zip law+ is worth it or not? is it useful?

I have it and there are some interesting news but I think that the news letter is enough. Plus the review services are not included in the subscription.

 

[latome19]

As somebody who went both to Cambridge and elsewhere, maybe the point is that in regard to many subjects, Oxbridge is just harder to get into statistically? They effectively do a lot of work for employers by filtering out candidates from an academic point view through their interview process. The same point about the degree of selectiveness goes with LSE people in IB. Why the university acceptance rate would not be a reliable metric for law firms to meet their academic criterion? Yes, there are law firms that heavily rely on the Oxbridge hallmark during the application process (like Davis Polk), but just judging from Legal Cheek it is not simply the case for most of the firms, with their Oxbridge trainee intakes only being a smaller percentage of around 20-30%?

Of course, there is another point about getting the interviewing partner to like you, and if you both went to Oxbridge that would obviously help, but again at the partner level I’m not sure that most law firms are Oxbridge dominated, in my experience, they actually have a lot of hires from all over the world to service their clients’ needs (this is for US firms). And yes it is usually the top universities in those countries, it’s just that in the UK, what should be an essentially meritocracy - getting into the best uni - has been historically marred by classism for too long a time.

 

[mfuturetrainee]

I have it and there are some interesting news but I think that the news letter is enough. Plus the review services are not included in the subscription.

ahhh okay thank you!!

 

[law2022x]

all i know is i’m never applying to slaughter & may again 😅 they’re the one firm i have a personal agenda against as a working class student

 

[ADKM]

I am not diminishing anyone’s hard work. By the way I connected with them on LinkedIn, so it wasn’t an off-hand comment.

No one is diminishing anyone’s hard work, but why do I have to get a lot of work experiences and make my CV unique to get to AC while someone else shows up with society experience only?

Yes needs more nuance probably. But that doesn’t mean that everything is perfectly fair and fine in the recruitment process.

Wholeheartedly agree with your point. Just as an extension to this, this process does sometimes feel unfair. Everyone works bloody hard and is very deserving of all the chances they get, however when we constantly see law firms pitching about encouraging more diverse backgrounds and how diverse work experiences will help an application standout - it hurts when as an applicant you do everything that’s asked for but your application doesn’t progress because you’re from a “supposedly non-traditional background” (although I don’t know how does one define a traditional or non-traditional background - whether it’s defined through attending a particular university or social class, I’ll leave that up for debate).

As a reference, I didn’t study in the UK yet I always keep telling myself that I am good enough to compete in this process. That’s because I have extensively networked with law firms in London through open/insight days, virtual events, have a mix of legal and non-legal experience and yet I repeatedly keep failing in my quest to even gain a place on an AC. Whereas, I know someone who applied to just “ONE” firm from overseas and secures a TC. So when you see such inconsistencies, it does make you question how fair or rigorous this process actually is!

 

[mfuturetrainee]

all i know is i’m never applying to slaughter & may again 😅 they’re the one firm i have a personal agenda against as a working class student

same 😭

 

[Jessica Booker]

Whereas, I know someone who applied to just “ONE” firm from overseas and secures a TC. So when you see such inconsistencies, it does make you question how fair or rigorous this process actually is!

I would stress I don’t think this is necessarily evidence of a process being unfair or lacking thoroughness. One person can just do their hard work in other ways and then focus (and fixate) or aligning with that one application they are making.

They just get their match right from the outset (and I suspect there is a bit of luck in finding that match so early on), while others do have more of a journey to find their match.

 

[Apple]

I feel like its worth noting that law firms dont just see Oxbridge on a CV and invite them to AC. Furthermore, many firms have began using blind interview processes now.

The issue is more systematic. Top law firms want candidates with lots of experiences, confidence, and good interview performers. These are skills generally worked on at a young age for those at top private schools, Oxbridge etc, so they are overrepresented as they perform better.

I disagree with the comments that lots of people at AC just have Oxbridge on there CV and "no experience". How could they answer a single competency or motivational question without any experiences?

The lack of diversity is really concerning, its so rife at most law firms. But the issue stems from many factors, and isnt quite as simple as some people make it out to be.

Some of the sixth-form programmes targeted at state-schools, such as the CC ones, are incredibly effective in my opinion, as they introduce disadvantaged students to the process very early and level the playing field (as much as possible).

 

[3000to1shoteverytime]

I suspect perhaps the style of Oxbridge tutorials may lead to a way of thinking that mean not only do the Oxbridge candidates perform better in the screening tests in the early rounds but when at an AC they are far more used to being probed under pressure on their thoughts in relation to a point being made and therefore perform well then. Thus it is no surprise they progress. Whilst we are told we need to concentrate on our own performance despite what anyone says we are competing with others.

Disclaimer: not at an Oxbridge uni

 

[law2022x]

I feel like its worth noting that law firms dont just see Oxbridge on a CV and invite them to AC. Furthermore, many firms have began using blind interview processes now.

The issue is more systematic. Top law firms want candidates with lots of experiences, confidence, and good interview performers. These are skills generally worked on at a young age for those at top private schools, Oxbridge etc, so they are overrepresented as they perform better.

I disagree with the comments that lots of people at AC just have Oxbridge on there CV and "no experience". How could they answer a single competency or motivational question without any experiences?

The lack of diversity is really concerning, its so rife at most law firms. But the issue stems from many factors, and isnt quite as simple as some people make it out to be.

First part might be true but firms can still tell someone is Oxbridge if they’ve studied Roman Law in first year or if they mention it in their app answers when discussing societies which most do. Or if they mention meeting them at a law fair or specific law dinner then they know they are at least from a target university. But yeah some might try to ignore it still at the initial app stage but it does still poke through

 

[Miss Chocolate]

Can anyone who is preparing for their Bristows partner interview please share what they are doing? I haven't been invited yet but I think I should be optimistic because at least starting regular early prep will help. I was considering reviewing basics of IP law, basics of contract and doing some reading around sectors I mentioned in my application form.

Please could we share our preparing strategies/ materials people are browsing through? 🙏💋 I am kind of nervous.